According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

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auto
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Re: According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

Post by auto » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:18 pm

There are four persons in the world. It prolly refers to 1-4 jhanas.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.123/en/sujato
“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world. What four? Firstly, a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. They enjoy it and like it and find it satisfying. If they abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Group. The lifespan of the gods of Brahma’s Group is one eon. An ordinary person stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they go to hell or the animal realm or the ghost realm. But a disciple of the Buddha stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they’re extinguished in that very life. This is the difference between an educated noble disciple and an uneducated ordinary person, that is, when there is a place of rebirth.
Bhagavato pana sāvako tattha yāvatāyukaṃ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṃ tesaṃ devānaṃ āyuppamāṇaṃ taṃ sabbaṃ khepetvā tasmiṃyeva bhave parinibbāyati.
a disciple gets nibbanae'd when the lifespan of gods in that world end. While ordinary person goes to hell, animal realm or ghost realm.

A mendicant dies being committed to the jhana and then reborns in a world where if he is an ariya(noble person) he gets extinguished(nibbana'ed) while ordinary person goes back(rebirths) to lower worlds.

So it seem in human realm when you get to jhana and cultivate it you die(not as flesh body) and reborn to a world and if you are dsciple then you won't come back.

-----
in case of arupa, it is ayatanas(dimensions?) not worlds.

ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ
viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ
ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ
nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ

idk maybe you could call nibbana a death.

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cappuccino
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Re: According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:40 pm

Zom wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:35 pm
but nibbana is always there, and so it remains after the death of arahant. For me such kind of view is "nibbana = true self".
I don't think Nirvana = true self. I also don't think Nirvana is annihilation.

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cappuccino
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Re: According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:13 pm

being selfless doesn't destroy you

otherwise this path wouldn't be fit for anyone

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equilibrium
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Re: According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

Post by equilibrium » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:37 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:40 pm
Zom wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:35 pm
but nibbana is always there, and so it remains after the death of arahant. For me such kind of view is "nibbana = true self".
I don't think Nirvana = true self. I also don't think Nirvana is annihilation.
Yet an Arahat knows there is no birth or death.....how then therefore can death be true?

Furthermore, isn't Nibbana always there? ....as it is unconditioned.....it is therefore permanent.....Irrespective of one passing away or not?

On self.....AN 4.174:
... is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectifies non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.

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Virgo
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Re: According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

Post by Virgo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:14 am

No phenomena is self. There is, however, ditthi, which can take phenomena for a self:

http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas18.html

Kevin...

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Re: According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:51 am

equilibrium wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:37 pm
Furthermore, isn't Nibbana always there? ....as it is unconditioned.....it is therefore permanent.....Irrespective of one passing away or not?
I find the suttas rather ambiguous on this question. Is Nibbana only "in here" as an experience, or is it also "out there" in some sense?

Unconditioned means not subject to conditions, and therefore unchanging. Whether that also means permanent is less clear, IMO.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

Post by zan » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:19 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:35 am
zan wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:19 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:29 pm
Well, the Suttas say

"Sabbe dhamma anatta", which is taken to mean that all things are devoid of self; and the contrast with all sankhara, or compounded phenomena, is often taken to mean that the "all things" include the unconditioned, or nibbana.

Thank you. Which sutta is this quote from exactly?
It's in the Maggavagga of the Dhammapada (v. 277-279). I think it's also in the Digha Nikaya somewhere, but I can't recall where.
Thanks!
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. Look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Look elsewhere. See my writings like word games, nothing more.

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cappuccino
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Re: According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:34 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:51 am
Is Nibbana only "in here" as an experience, or is it also "out there" in some sense?
Thus, friends, you should train yourselves … Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.
Cunda Sutta

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equilibrium
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Re: According to Orthodox Theravada only, in the suttas, is nibbana the self?

Post by equilibrium » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:38 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:51 am
equilibrium wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:37 pm
Furthermore, isn't Nibbana always there? ....as it is unconditioned.....it is therefore permanent.....Irrespective of one passing away or not?
I find the suttas rather ambiguous on this question. Is Nibbana only "in here" as an experience, or is it also "out there" in some sense?
Nibbana cannot happen "in here" because it would be under conditioned.
It is said Nibbana can only be experienced outside the "ALL".
This "in here" and "out there" are formed by division.....the difference between conditioned and unconditioned.

On ALL: SN 35.23:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.
Unconditioned means not subject to conditions, and therefore unchanging. Whether that also means permanent is less clear, IMO.
Anything that is unborn, uncreated, un established cannot be destroyed as it was never born/existed in the first place.....therefore it is permanent.
AN 3.47:
“Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned❗️

What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.”
The knowledge of the "origin" of suffering "dispels" the Annihilation view.

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