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Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:28 am
by blackspaven
Hi,

Been casually trying to research something for a piece of art for a few years now, and it feels like i'm finally getting somewhere, although like Indiana Jones & the Holy Grail, I also feel like I might have to leave the grail where it is and it'll turn out I'm not gonna find an answer.... which is where you guys might be able to help me cos i've been totally blown away by the knowledge of text some people have on here!!

Ok!

Basically, i've been trying to find some sort of original text/script for the Noble Eightfold Path as the work of art I wish to produce is for me to look at and understand it's meaning, but still be individual and a little bit secret to me (and to anyone who can read said language!). So, and this is the bit I may need correction on... my knowledge of the origins and history of this so far is that the teachings of Gautami Buddha would have been passed down orally and that his language would have been Magahi/Magadhi (albeit they weren't written down). I also understand that the earliest written scrolls are very scant and unlikely to produce a handy piece of text for what i'm looking for. Pali appears to be more a vocal language and not a written medium as such, and Devanagari looks to me like a general written language for a large area of India, although i'm not too sure about that one.

So, my question, if it can be answered is,...

What does the scripture/text look like for the written version of the Eightfold Path??

I am coming up with either Devanagari or Magadhi as the basis for what it should be, but i'm amazed that the only versions of the Eightfold Path I can find are in Romanised English and I simply cannot find a variant in anything like it's mother tongue! I could get it translated from English via a website, but if anyone's ever used a translator to go from english to french and back to english, it never reads correctly.

Can anyone help me, i'm really on my last legs and all the sources i've tried (Pali text society, Naropa, various Buddhist institutions... :juggling: ) have only gotten me this far. Can anyone show me what the Eightfold Path looks like in it's most likely original text/scripture?? :broke:

Thank you, namaste.

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:55 pm
by DNS
Noble Eightfold Path:

in Sinhala script: ආර්ය අශ්ටාංගික මාර්ග

in Thai script: อริยมรรคแปด

I personally prefer Brahmi script, since it is perhaps the oldest written form of Pali, used by King Ashoka in his edicts:

http://www.ancientscripts.com/brahmi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:51 pm
by Kare
David N. Snyder wrote:Noble Eightfold Path:

in Sinhala script: ආර්ය අශ්ටාංගික මාර්ග

in Thai script: อริยมรรคแปด
None of these is in Pali. The Sinhala script version seems to be in Sanskrit (or maybe in Sanskrit-influenced Sinhalese). The Thai script version is in Thai.

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:35 pm
by DNS
Kare wrote: None of these is in Pali. The Sinhala script version seems to be in Sanskrit (or maybe in Sanskrit-influenced Sinhalese). The Thai script version is in Thai.
Okay, thanks.

I had copied them from wikipedia. :)

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:42 pm
by mikenz66
Thanks Kare.

To clarify, the second word, แปด bpàet, is the Thai word for eight, not the Pali word for eight (aṭṭha, I believe) expressed in Thai script.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:05 pm
by cooran
The Pali Language (article from University of Queensland)
http://uqconnect.net/slsoc/sutta/pali.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:15 pm
by Kare
cooran wrote:The Pali Language (article from University of Queensland)
http://uqconnect.net/slsoc/sutta/pali.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I quote from the article you are referring to:

"Pāli was considered by early Buddhists to be linguistically similar to old Magadhi or even a direct continuation of that language. Many Theravada sources refer to the Pāli language as 'Magadhan' or the 'language of Magadhi'. However, Magadhi is an Eastern Indian language whereas Pāli most closely resembles Western Indian inscriptions. Oskar von Hinuber has speculated that Pāli may have originated as a form of lingua franca or trade language used at the time of the Ashokan Empire."

I am puzzled to see that people don't see the obvious solution of the Pali-Magadhi problem (well, obvious to me ... but I may of course be wrong).

The Pali commentaries, written in Sri Lanka, call the language Magadhi. Today we call it Pali. So what is the connection between Pali and Magadhi?

Magadhi just means "from Magadha".

The question then is: What or where was Magadha?

The territory of Magadha developed in 3 phases:

1. At the time of the Buddha it was a small, but aggressive kingdom in the eastern part of the Ganges valley.

2. After the death of the Buddha, Magadha expanded, until it covered most of the Indian subcontinent at the time of Asoka.

3. Later the name again the name was reserved for the province covering approximately the same area as the original Magadha.

It was during the reign of Asoka that Buddhism reached Sri Lanka. To the Sinhalese at that time, it must have been natural to call the language of the texts Magadhi, since it came from Magadha - that is the large Magadha of king Asoka. To them Magadhi language probably was synonymous with just "language from the Indian continent", and it probably had no reference to the earlier or the later smaller eastern province of Magadha.

So trying to connect Pali with the later literary Prakrit language of Magadhi, may be just a wild goose chase, or chasing a red hering. The Sinhalese commentators knew that the language and the texts came from somewhere in India, from the large "Magadha" of Asoka. If they knew exactly where in "Great Magadha" the texts and the language came from - east or west, they didn't care enough about to mention anything of it.

This case of a name getting displaced and wandering around on the map according to political developments, is not unknown elsewhere. When the Turks conquered Asia Minor, they called it "Rumi", that is "Rome", because it had been part of the Byzantine, or East Roman, empire. So when a poet from Persia lived most of his life in this Sultanate of Rumi (that is: Asia Minor), he was also called Rumi - "The Roman" - although he never set his foot in Italy or Rome proper.

I find it strange that no one has suggested this simple answer to the Pali-Magadhi problem. And if I am wrong, at least I would like to see it refuted.

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:35 pm
by blackspaven
Sorry, apologies, I think my request has been taken too literally. I'm after the CONTENTS of the Eightfold Path, not the words 'The eightfold path', but thank you for your efforts so far. :twothumbsup:

Nope, I'm after the eight actual aspects of the eightfold path in as close as possible to their original text/script (ie, Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness & Right Concentration).

Hope that clears it up and sorry again for the confusion, although it was slightly amusing. :oops:

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:43 pm
by mikenz66
Hi blackspaven,

Whether you want "eightfold path" or "right view" etc, the problem is the same. There is no "original text/script" for Pali. The closest you could do would be to use one of the scripts from a related language, as David explained above.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:49 pm
by blackspaven
Yeah, that's what i'm gathering and I what I tried to allude to in my original post. That's kinda why i'm looking to see if anyone can help me with finding what they look like in either Devanagari or Magadhi as one seems to be a general language of India and the other is what is believed to be the language of the original Buddha so might be a safe bet that it's pure in it's origin on that basis. My understanding is that Pali is more of a spoken language, amongst other reasons showing it would never have been written down in that form.

Trouble is, everywhere I look that has various scripts on this subject mean nothing to me as I can't read them and I get confused as to what they're ACTUALLY saying/transcribing as. I don't really want to put something into the art piece and find out at a later date i've unwittingly written a cracking recipe for soup or something! :jumping:

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:02 pm
by mikenz66
Here are some links to previous discussions of how to express Pali in different scripts:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 27#p132075" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 27#p130615" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.visiblemantra.org/scripts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 12#p145219" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:43 pm
by SamKR
blackspaven wrote:Yeah, that's what i'm gathering and I what I tried to allude to in my original post. That's kinda why i'm looking to see if anyone can help me with finding what they look like in either Devanagari or Magadhi as one seems to be a general language of India and the other is what is believed to be the language of the original Buddha so might be a safe bet that it's pure in it's origin on that basis [...]
Following are the eight parts of the Noble eightfold path in Pali (Devanagari and Roman Scripts):

Pali (Devanagari Script)
अरियो अट्ठङ्गिको मग्गो
सम्मादिट्ठि सम्मासङ्कप्पो सम्मावाचा सम्माकम्मन्तो सम्माआजीवो सम्मावायामो सम्मासति सम्मासमाधि

Pali (Roman Script)
ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo
sammādiṭṭhi sammāsaṅkappo sammāvācā sammākammanto sammāājīvo sammāvāyāmo sammāsati sammāsamādhi

English
Noble eightfold path
right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration

I can read Devanagari, so I copied this from http://tipitaka.org/deva/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Please make sure in your browser settings that Devanagari is rendered properly. Sometimes, chrome browser does not render Devanagari properly, but for me firefox works fine.

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:27 am
by pilgrim
+1 :clap:

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:25 pm
by blackspaven
Okay, so if i'm reading this correctly, the following is the pali/Davangari for the aspects of the eightfold path??

अरियो अट्ठङ्गिको मग्गो

सम्मादिट्ठि सम्मासङ्कप्पो सम्मावाचा सम्माकम्मन्तो सम्माआजीवो सम्मावायामो सम्मासति सम्मासमाधि

I'm presuming that the first line is the actual words 'Noble Eightfold Path' the second being the aspects themselves, and are the spacing's correct or does it not make a difference?? (anyone know how to make it any bigger to make it a bit clearer to transcribe??)

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:28 pm
by blackspaven
I'm quite excited now: this is closer than i've gotten in 2 years of random searching through other buddhist media. :woohoo:

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:30 pm
by blackspaven
Ah, just noticed a pattern... does up to this bit mean 'right/correct'?

सम्मा

Had a look on that link ( I have firefox so it shows up fine), and I can see where you would have gotten it from,... or rather I would have if I could read it! Is there any way you could show me where on that folders bit on the side it shows you where the aspects are shown so I can see them a bit larger, as it appears to show things bigger on the right hand side of the page, but obviously I can't find it... cos I can't read it. :smile:

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:20 pm
by SamKR
blackspaven wrote:Okay, so if i'm reading this correctly, the following is the pali/Davangari for the aspects of the eightfold path??

अरियो अट्ठङ्गिको मग्गो

सम्मादिट्ठि सम्मासङ्कप्पो सम्मावाचा सम्माकम्मन्तो सम्माआजीवो सम्मावायामो सम्मासति सम्मासमाधि

I'm presuming that the first line is the actual words 'Noble Eightfold Path' the second being the aspects themselves, and are the spacing's correct or does it not make a difference?? (anyone know how to make it any bigger to make it a bit clearer to transcribe??)
Yes, exactly. अरियो अट्ठङ्गिको मग्गो is "noble eightfold path".
Read from left to right. There are spaces between the words. सम्मादिट्ठि (right view) is the first one, and सम्मासमाधि (right concentration) is the eighth.

Bigger:
अरियो अट्ठङ्गिको मग्गो
सम्मादिट्ठि सम्मासङ्कप्पो सम्मावाचा सम्माकम्मन्तो सम्माआजीवो सम्मावायामो सम्मासति सम्मासमाधि

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:27 pm
by SamKR
blackspaven wrote:Ah, just noticed a pattern... does up to this bit mean 'right/correct'?

सम्मा
Yes.
सम्मा = sammā ≈ right
blackspaven wrote: Had a look on that link ( I have firefox so it shows up fine), and I can see where you would have gotten it from,... or rather I would have if I could read it! Is there any way you could show me where on that folders bit on the side it shows you where the aspects are shown so I can see them a bit larger, as it appears to show things bigger on the right hand side of the page, but obviously I can't find it... cos I can't read it. :smile:
Click this link: http://tipitaka.org/deva/cscd/s0304m.mul3.xml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; You will see it in the second paragraph of the first sutta there.
You can make texts bigger in firefox by pressing ctrl and +.

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:13 pm
by blackspaven
Sam?? Thank you SOOOO much for all your help on here!!! :clap:

I now have exactly what i'm after, so I can go ahead with what I wanted to do. It's nice to get a little cheer up in the middle of the day, so thanks for all your input and effort again, it's massively appreciated and couldn't have done it without your help. Give yourself a pat on the back and a chocolate frog. :bow:

One last question, but I think I already know the answer to this one: with that particular type of script, I read about the line on the top running through it all, but does it have to join up if you're writing in a sentence, such as the list of the eightfold path? I'm guessing not, as the website link appears to be broken up into individual words/aspects, but just thought i'd double check.

Re: Pali/Devanagari/Magadhi deadend?!!

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:12 am
by SamKR
blackspaven wrote:Sam?? Thank you SOOOO much for all your help on here!!! :clap:

I now have exactly what i'm after, so I can go ahead with what I wanted to do. It's nice to get a little cheer up in the middle of the day, so thanks for all your input and effort again, it's massively appreciated and couldn't have done it without your help. Give yourself a pat on the back and a chocolate frog. :bow: .
Glad to know it was helpful.
blackspaven wrote: One last question, but I think I already know the answer to this one: with that particular type of script, I read about the line on the top running through it all, but does it have to join up if you're writing in a sentence, such as the list of the eightfold path? I'm guessing not, as the website link appears to be broken up into individual words/aspects, but just thought i'd double check.
The horizontal line on the top of each word runs through only that word, and it is not connected to such horizontal lines of other words. There must be a space between two words (like English), and so the horizontal line is broken between words.

At the end of each sentence there is a full stop (" । "), a small vertical line. The function of this punctuation mark is exactly similar to that of period (" . ").
So the first sutta in the page (directed by the links below) has the following full sentence:
[Devanagari:] अयमेव खो, आवुसो, अरियो अट्ठङ्गिको मग्गो एतस्स निब्बानस्स सच्छिकिरियाय, सेय्यथिदं – सम्मादिट्ठि सम्मासङ्कप्पो सम्मावाचा सम्माकम्मन्तो सम्माआजीवो सम्मावायामो सम्मासति सम्मासमाधि।
http://tipitaka.org/deva/cscd/s0304m.mul3.xml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Roman:] Ayameva kho, āvuso, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo etassa nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya, seyyathidaṃ – sammādiṭṭhi sammāsaṅkappo sammāvācā sammākammanto sammāājīvo sammāvāyāmo sammāsati sammāsamādhi.
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0304m.mul3.xml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note the punctuation mark (" । ") at the end of सम्मासमाधि, the last word of that sentence.