Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by Dmytro » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:09 am

Michael Olds wrote (translating 'viññāṇa' as 're-knowing knowing'):

Greetings! As some of you know, I have been digging into the notion of
Vinnana Anidassana for some time now. This is my take:

Tracing things back from our visible world by way of finding it's essential
dependancies, we see that growing old and dying depend on the fact of birth.
Without birth there would be no getting old and dying.
Birth depends on the fact of life itself. If there were no such thing as
"Life" in any form anywhere, then there could be no birth.
Life depends on the animation known as "going after getting" and "going
after getting away from." If there were no activity in the form of
attempting to get or get away, then there would be no living.
Activitiy in the pursuit of getting and getting away depends on the fact of
wanting. If there were no wanting to get or wanting to get away, there would
be no attempting to get or attempting to get away.
Wanting depends on sense experience in the form of pleasant sensation,
unpleasant sensation, and sensation that is neither pleasant nor unpleasant.
If there were no sensations there would be no wanting to get or wanting to
get away.
Sensations depend on the mechanisms of sensation-production: the organ of
sense, the object of sense, the contact of the two, and the sensation,
perception, and consciousness that arises from the conjunction of the three
(sense organ, sense object, and mechanism of consciousness). If there were
no mechanism of sensation-production, then there would be no sense
experience.
The Mechanisms of sensation-production depend on the inter-operation of the
mental and the material. If there were no inter-operation of the mental and
the material, there would be no mechanism for sensation production.
The interoperation of the Mental and Material depends on the ability to
re-know knowing. If there were no ability to re-know knowing, then there
would be no interoperation of the Mental and Material.
The ability to re-know knowing depends on the interoperation of the Mental
and Material. If there were no interoperation of the Mental and Material,
there would be no re-knowing knowing.

So it can be seen at this point that re-knowing knowing depends on the
interoperation of the mental and the material, and the interoperation of the
mental and the material depends on re-knowing knowing. The one doubles back
on the other.

It is because individuals do not see the outcome in aging and death, and
because they do not see the origin of that aging and death in the wanting
that is connected to the re-knowing of knowing sense experiences, and
because they do not see the ending of that aging and death in the ending of
that wanting that is connected to the re-knowing of knowing sense
experiences, that they take action to get or get away from in the form of
identification with intentional acts (to get or get away from) of body,
speech and mind. If individuals saw the outcome as aging and death, if they
saw the origin as wanting, if they saw the ending as the ending of that
wanting, there would be no taking action to get or get away from and there
would be no resultant identification found in the outcome. This is the
meaning of: Depending on Blindness [a = not; vijja = vision]; Confounded
Identification [sangkhara = sang = own, with; khara= making].

This blindness takes the form of points of view about existance and
non-existance. Put in first-level terms, it is the point of view that "I am"
or "It is my."

The inter-operation of the mental and the material in what is subjectively
understood to be the present moment is producing sensations, perceptions,
and re-knowing knowing carrying with it [from it's previously having been
implanted there by identification with intentional acts of body, speech and
mind] the notion "I am" or "It is my." Re-knowing the knowing of that,
depending on the now current point of view of the individual, this notion is
accepted or not accepted. Accepted it produces a tendancy to react.
Reacting, it produces another "round." Rejected, it does not produce any
tendancy to react. Not reacting, nothing is produced.

This "re-knowing the knowing" of the personalized [carrying with it the
notion of "I am" from the point of it's being previously intentionally set
rolling] "re-knowing knowing" produced by the inter-operation of the mental
and the material in the present moment is what is known as "Vinnana
Anidassananam," the re-knowing knowing that cannot be seen or pointed out.

It is essential to this notion of a re-knowing knowing that cannot be
pointed out that it remain without "descriptors". This is because that which
is used as a descriptor is made in the "mental" side of the two-sided beast
that is the interoperation of the mental and the material that is the basis
for the senses. Like a mirror, when a thing is conceptualized in the mental
side, there is automatically formed a corresponding "thing" in the material
side. In other words, conceptualized through the senses [in this case "the
mind" of the individual], that is, described as a "thing" (and a "state" is
a "thing") the re-knowing knowing of the Arahant is always [must always be]
being wrongly described. Since there is no other way to describe a thing, it
must remain undescribed.

Attempting a description of the re-knowing knowing of the Arahant is the
error of those who maintain an on-going "Pure Mind", or "Buddha Mind": they
have conceptualized the unconceptualizable. They have made the Unborn,
Unmade, Undying, etc into existing states and have consequently bound
themselves to the attainment of such a "thing". Attaining such a thing is
attaining a "state" and as such is attaining something that will end and as
such is not the goal.

We must be satisfied to let well-enough alone. Let go of what we can know is
going to result in Pain, and the rest will take care of itself.

Say I.


Best Wishes!
Michael Olds
http://www.buddhadust.org

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by Dmytro » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:53 pm

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and notes from MN 49:
MN 49 wrote:24. “‘Good sir, if that is not partaken of by the allness of all, may it not turn out to be vacuous and empty for you!’

25. “‘Consciousness non-manifesting,
Boundless, luminous all-round: [Note 513]

that is not partaken of by the earthness of earth, that is not partaken of by the waterness of water…[330]…that is not partaken of by the allness of all.’
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: In the first edition, I retained Ñm’s own translation of these lines, which read:
  • The consciousness that makes no showing,
    Nor has to do with finiteness,
    Not claiming being with respect to all.
In retrospect, I find this rendering far from satisfactory and thus here offer my own. These lines (which also appear as part of a full verse at DN 11.85/i.223) have been a perennial challenge to Buddhist scholarship, and even Ācariya Buddhaghosa seems to founder over them. MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbāna, called “consciousness” (viññāṇṁ) in the sense that “it can be cognized” (vijānitabbaṁ). This derivation is hardly credible, since nowhere in the Nik̄yas is Nibb̄na described as consciousness, nor is it possible to derive an active noun from the gerundive. MA explains anidassanaṁ as meaning invisible, “because it (Nibbāna) does not come within range of eye-consciousness,” but again this is a trite explanation. The word anidassana occurs at MN 21.14 in the description of empty space as an unsuitable medium for painting pictures; thus the idea seems to be that of not making manifest.

MA offers three explanations of sabbato pabhaṁ: (1) completely possessed of luminosity (pabhā); (2) possessing being (pabhū̇taṃ) everywhere; and (3) a ford (pabhaṁ) accessible from all sides, i.e., through any of the thirty-eight meditation objects. Only the first of these seems to have any linguistic legitimacy. Ñm, in Ms, explains that he takes pabhaṁ to be a negative present participle of pabhavati—apabhaṁ—the negative-prefix a dropping off in conjunction with sabbato: “The sense can be paraphrased freely by ‘not predicating being in relation to “all,”’ or ‘not assuming of “all” that it is or is not in an absolute sense.’” But if we take pabhaṁ as “luminous,” which seems better justified, the verse links up with the idea of the mind as intrinsically luminous (pabhassaram idaṁ cittaṁ , AN i.10) and also suggests the light of wisdom (pa), called the best of lights (AN ii.139). I understand this consciousness to be, not Nibbāna itself, but the arahant’s consciousness during the meditative experience of Nibb̄na. See in this connection AN v.7–10, 318–26. Note that this meditative experience does not make manifest any conditioned phenomena of the world, and thus may be truly described as “non-manifesting.”

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:56 pm

Anidassanaṃ,
Given that it shares the same ending as;
cakkhāyatanaṃ, sotāyatanaṃ, ghānāyatanaṃ, jivhāyatanaṃ, kāyāyatanaṃ, manāyatanaṃ

Which Thanissaro pins as:
six sense media: the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium: These are called the six sense media.

Is there a relation?

As for anidassana, again, Bhikkhu Bodhi: "The word anidassana occurs at MN 21.14 in the description of empty space as an unsuitable medium for painting pictures; thus the idea seems to be that of not making manifest."

I think a good translation is "without a medium"

I don't know pali much but it seems to make a lot of sense imo. At the very least i think the Anidassanam and the other translation related to the sense-thing should be kept consistent.

Now without a medium for what it may be asked, a medium for suffering would be the answer. Now the constructed is of and from the constructed so with the cessation of the constructed there is no medium for the constructed.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by Dmytro » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:56 pm

DN 11, Walshe Translation.
But, monk, you should not ask your question in this way: ‘Where do the four great elements — the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the air element — cease without remainder?’ Instead, this is how the question should have been put:
  • ‘Where do earth, water, fire and air no footing find?
    Where are long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
    Where are “name-and-form” wholly destroyed?’ [239]
And the answer is:
  • ‘Where consciousness is signless,[240] boundless, all-luminous, [241]
    That’s where earth, water, fire and air find no footing,
    There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul -
    There “name-and-form” are wholly destroyed.
    With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.”” [242]

[239] Mind and body, i.e. ‘subject and object’ (Neumann quoted by RD).

[240] Anidassanaṁ: or ‘invisible’. Ñāṇananda (n.242) renders it ‘non-manifesting’.

[241] This word (pabhaṁ or pahaṁ) has been variously interpreted. DA takes it in the sense of a ford, or a place to enter the water ‘accessible from all sides’, by means of which one can reach Nibbana. There is an improbable suggestion that the meaning is ‘rejecting’, and Mrs Bennett translates the line: ‘Where the consciousness that makes endless comparisons is entirely abandoned’, which seems to involve a misunderstanding of anidassanaṁ. (But see next note). The same sequence also occurs at MN 49.11rendered by I.B. Horner (MLS i, 392): ‘Discriminative consciousness (= viññāṇaṁ) which cannot be characterised (= anidassanaṁ), which is unending, lucid in every respect (= sabbato pabhaṁ).’ The two passages should be studied in conjunction. Cf. also AN 1.6: ‘This mind (citta) is luminous, but is defiled by adventitious defilements.’ See important discussion by Ñāṇananda, 57-63.

[242] G.C. Pande (Studies in the Origins of Buddhism, 92, n.21) says: ‘Buddha says that the question should not be asked in the manner in which it is done in the prose quotation above, but thus — as in the metrical lines that follow. One may pertinently ask: “Why? what is wrong with the prose formulation?” The only answer would seem to be: “Nothing. But the verses have to be brought in!”.
Ñāṇananda (Concept and Reality, 59) explains it thus: ‘The last line of the verse stresses the fact that the four great elements do not find a footing — and that ‘Name-and-Form’ (comprehending them) can be cut-off completely — in that ‘anidassana-viññāṇa’ (the ‘nonmanifestative consciousness’) of the Arahant, by the cessation of his normal consciousness which rests on the data of sense-experience. This is a corrective to that monk’s notion that the four elements can cease altogether somewhere — a notion which has its roots in the popular conception of self-existing material elements. The Buddha’s reformulation of the original question and this concluding line are meant to combat this wrong notion.’
Many thanks to Mike: viewtopic.php?t=12510#p189583

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by Dmytro » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:58 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:56 pm
Given that it shares the same ending as;
cakkhāyatanaṃ, sotāyatanaṃ, ghānāyatanaṃ, jivhāyatanaṃ, kāyāyatanaṃ, manāyatanaṃ

Which Thanissaro pins as:
six sense media: the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium: These are called the six sense media.

Is there a relation?
No relation at all.

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:01 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:58 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:56 pm
Given that it shares the same ending as;
cakkhāyatanaṃ, sotāyatanaṃ, ghānāyatanaṃ, jivhāyatanaṃ, kāyāyatanaṃ, manāyatanaṃ

Which Thanissaro pins as:
six sense media: the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium: These are called the six sense media.

Is there a relation?
No relation at all.
out of curiosity, what is the designation of the ending?

Here are many translations of the dn11;
http://www.leighb.com/dn11_85.htm
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by Dmytro » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:04 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:01 pm
out of curiosity, what is the designation of the ending?
It's

-aṃ (-iṃ, -uṃ, -ṃ)

1. m. n. f. sg. acc. buddhaṃ (the Buddha), phalaṃ (the fruit), gāthaṃ (the verse), rājaṃ (the king)
2. n. sg. nom. phalaṃ (the fruit), kammaṃ (karma)

https://dhamma.ru/paali/tables/palisufi.htm

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:26 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:56 pm
I think a good translation is "without a medium"
The above sounds like the view of Bhikkhu Sati in MN 38:
Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness? But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time.”

Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises. When consciousness arises dependent on the eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds, it is reckoned as ear-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the nose and odours, it is reckoned as nose-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and flavours, it is reckoned as tongue-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the body and tangibles, it is reckoned as body-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness.

MN 38
Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.

SN 22.53

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by markandeya » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:37 am

HI Dmytro

Thank you for some interesting comments, gives me some further pointers for relfection and research.

There is a good book by Ajhan Amaro and Ajhan Passano The Island~ An Anthology of the Buddha's Teachings on NibbAna, i refer to it sometimes, inside are some references to Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ.

Kevaddha Sutta is one of the suttas that has helped me most in my own study and reelections, it aligns with a lot of things, and is a complete sutta.

In one of the comments above it was said that Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is not any type of consciousness, the word consciousness is not very good to understand ñāṇaṃ, its to vague and general, sanskri~ jnana perhaps broaden the understanding ñāṇa and Jnana are the same thing just different language.

Kevaddha was a seeker and looked to find the start or the first cause of the elements, and after his journey through the inner cosmos he was sent back by BrahmA to Tathāgata to seek his final answer. Tathāgata is a very interesting compound as. I would say more but some here may misunderstand.

Kevattas medium for travelling or searching the inner cosmos was samadhi.

All seeking ends at Tathāgata.

:anjali:

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:19 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:50 am
The commentarial tradition strongly rejects the idea that nibbāna is any kind of consciousness and the commentator's point here is that viññāṇaṃ in this context is not to be understood in its more common sense (i.e. as a noun meaning "consciousness") but rather as an adjective qualifying the noun anidassanaṃ.
The above sounds very logical and helpful.

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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by Lal » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:19 pm

I normally don't comment at other sections than the forum on Waharaka Thero, but this seems to be an important topic, not only here but at various other discussion forums. Here is a post that I published several months ago, and I hope it would be helpful.

1. I have seen several discussion forums discuss the verse, “viññāṇāṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ..”. Many times I have seen it to be referred to as, “there is controversy as to the precise meaning of this enigmatic phrase”.

Most common translations say something like, “‘Consciousness non-manifest (sometimes as consciousness without surface) , infinite, radiant all around”.
Such incorrect translations have then led to another drastic error by saying that “anidassana viññāna” is the same as the “pabhassara citta” and even as bhavanga. All these are astonishingly wrong!
2. Viññāṇa is a central and key concept to understand. I have started an in-depth discussion of viññāṇa in an advanced subsection of the “Living Dhamma” section: “Viññāna Aggregate“.

In this post, I describe a meaningful translation to the verse, “viññāṇāṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ..” that is consistent with all the suttas in the Tipitaka. I would welcome any evidence to the contrary.
This is getting into deep concepts. I would urge reading other related posts mentioned above first. Depending on one’s background, it may take time to grasp these concepts.
In fact, one really needs to read the posts in the subsection “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa” of which “Viññāna Aggregate” is a part. If one does not understand those concepts, one could keep going back to earlier sections in the “Living Dhamma” section. It is designed to go from simple to deep.
3. First, let us find the meaning of “anidassna” from the Tipitaka. The meaning of the word nidassana means an ‘illustration’ that can be seen. Anidassana means something that cannot be seen.

For example, dhamma that impinge on the mana indriya and gives rise to mano viññāna via “manaca paticca dhammeca uppaddati cakkhu viññānam“ also cannot be seen; dhamma are just energies lying below the suddhashtaka stage.
These dhamma are described as, “anidassan appatighan dhammāyatana pariyāpanna rūpan“ or “cannot be seen, cannot be touched, and can make contact only with the dhammāyatana”; see, “What are rūpa? – Dhamma are rūpa too!“.
4. In the Kaka­cūpama Sutta (MN 21): “..Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso āgaccheyya lākhaṃ vā haliddiṃ vā nīlaṃ vā mañjiṭṭhaṃ vā ādāya. So evaṃ vadeyya: ‘ahaṃ imasmiṃ ākāse rūpaṃ likhissāmi, rūpapātubhāvaṃ karissāmī’ti. Taṃ kiṃ maññatha, bhikkhave, api nu so puriso imasmiṃ ākāse rūpaṃ likheyya, rūpapātubhāvaṃ kareyyā”ti? “No hetaṃ, bhante”. “Taṃ kissa hetu”? “Ayañhi, bhante, ākāso arūpī anidassano. .”

Translated: “..Bhikkhus, a man may come along bringing off white or yellow or dark green or crimson colors, and may say: ‘I will draw shapes in the sky, I will make material shapes appear. What do you think about this, monks? Could that man draw pictures in the sky with those colors?” “No, Bhante. It is not possible to draw shapes in the empty sky that can be seen, that can manifest as figures”.

5. In the “Nibbāna-The Mind Stilled” series, Venerable Katukurunde Ñāṇananda has provided more evidence that “anidassana” means “something that cannot be seen” or ‘something that does not manifest”; see, Sermons 7 and 8 in Volume II, which is provided as a pdf in the above link.

However, his explanation of viññāna is critically wrong, as I explain below. This is a common mistake that I see in many current interpretations.
6. Viññāna is loosely translated as “consciousness” or “awareness”. But it is much more than that. Viññāna represents much more: “our hopes and desires that we want from this world”. This is the more important aspect — which makes the connection with rūpa.

We believe that things in this world will provide us with long lasting happiness. Thus we do vaci and kaya sankhara to achieve them. Then, “sankhāra paccayā viññāna” leads to the cultivation of a corresponding viññāna.
Viññāna means without ñāna. When we follow the Noble Path, we will comprehend the Three Characteristics of nature (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and realize the unfruitfulness of having such false hopes, i.e., we cultivate paññā.
7. This is quite clear from Paticca Samuppada: “avijjā paccayā sankhāra; sankhāra paccayā viññāna; viññāna paccayā nāmarūpa, nāmarūpa paccayā salāyatana, salāyatana paccayā phassō, phassa paccayā vēdanā, vēdanā paccayā tanhā, tanhā paccayā upādāna, upādāna paccayā bhavō, bhava paccayā jāti, jāti paccayā jarā, marana, sōka-paridēva-dukkha-dōmanassupāyasā sambhavan’ti”.

All future suffering arises because we act with avijjā (i.e., generate abhisankhāra) to achieve pleasurable worldy things and thereby generate viññāna.
8. Each individual citta of a normal human— during its existence for a billionth of a second — is contaminated in 9 stages and is added to the viññānakkhandha! See; “Pabhassara Citta, Radiant Mind, and Bhavanga“

Viññāna is a contaminated citta.
The contamination of a citta is manifested in saññā and vēdanā.
These are discussed in detail in “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa“.
9. It is stated in the “Saṅgīti Sutta (Digha Nikaya 33)“: “Tividhena rūpasaṅgaho—sani­dassa­na­sappa­ṭi­ghaṃ rūpam, ani­dassa­na­sappa­ṭi­ghaṃ rūpaṃ, ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ rūpaṃ“.

Translated: “Threefold classification of rupa (matter) – visible and graspable, invisible and graspable, invisible and ungraspable“.

Three types of rupa are sensed with the six sense faculties -five physical senses and the mana indriya.
Those rupa that are sensed with the mana indriya are dhamma: “mananca paticca dhammēca uppaddati manō viññānan“; see, “What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.
These are the rupa of the third kind: invisible and ungraspable (ani­dassa­n a­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ: “anidassan appatighan dhammāyatana pariyāpanna rūpan“; see, “What are rūpa? – Dhammā are rūpa too!“.
Those rupa of the third kind are same as namarupa that arise due to viññāna: “Kamma Viññāna and Nāmarūpa Paricceda Ñana“.
This is explained systematically in the subsection: “Nāma & Rūpa to Nāmarūpa“.
10. Viññāna is also the link between mind and matter, even though it is in the “nāma” or mind category” most of the time.

In the Paṭic­ca­samup­pāda­ Vibhaṅga, nāma is defined as only the first three khandha: “Tattha katamaṃ nāmaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅ­khā­rak­khan­dho—idaṃ vuccati “nāmaṃ”. This is a clear indication that viññāna khandha does not really belong in the “nāma or mind category”.
Even though vipaka viññāna is conclusively in the “nama” category, kamma viññāna have intrinsic energies, and thus fall into the rupa category. This why sometimes it is not included in the “nama” category.
This was pointed out in the post, “Viññāna – What It Really Means“. You may want to read that first. As pointed out in that post, kamma viññāna are different from vipaka viññāna in that kamma viññāna have energies embedded in them.
This is confirmed in the Majje Sutta (AN 6.61), where the Buddha stated that nama is at one end, rūpa is at the other end, with viññāna in the middle: “nāmaṃ kho, āvuso, eko anto, rūpaṃ dutiyo anto, viññāṇaṃ majjhe“.
11. The real nature of viññāna as cause for suffering is clearly stated in the “Dvaya­tānu­passa­nā­sutta (Sutta Nipata 3.12)“:

“Yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti,
Sabbaṃ viññāṇapaccayā;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena,
Natthi dukkhassa sambhavo“.

Translated: “Whatever suffering that arises, all that arises due to viññāṇa; With the not arising of viññāṇa, there is no existence with suffering“.

That should lay to rest any arguments about viññāṇa being equated to Nibbāna or even pabhassara citta, or bhavanga.
A critical point that I have been trying to make is that when one sees such dramatic contradiction somewhere, one should be skeptical about the trustworthiness of that source. This is the only way to make progress.
12. The phrase “”viññāṇāṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ..” appears in the Brahma­niman­tanika Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 49), and I will first provide the essential parts of the Sutta that are relevant to discuss the meaning of this verse.

Here is the essence of the Sutta in plain English:

At one time, The Buddha saw that the following wrong view came to the mind of the Baka Brahmā (who is the leader of the Maha Brahma realm; see, “31 Realms of Existence“): “My existence is permanent, it is stable, it is eternal, and is not liable to passing away”.

In order to correct the wrong view of the Maha Brahma, vanishing from near the great sāl-tree in the Subhaga Grove at Ukkaṭṭhā, the Buddha appeared in that Brahma-world.

Baka Brahmā saw the Buddha coming, welcomed him, and told him: “Idañhi, mārisa, niccaṃ, idaṃ dhuvaṃ, idaṃ sassataṃ, idaṃ kevalaṃ, idaṃ acavanadhammaṃ, idañhi na jāyati na jīyati na mīyati na cavati na upapajjati. Ito ca panaññaṃ uttari nissaraṇaṃ natthī’ti.“

Translated: “This existence, good sir, can be maintained to my liking, it is stable, it is eternal, it encompasses all, this is not liable to passing away, this is not born, nor does it age or die or to pass away or uprise, and there is not another further release from this existence”.

The Buddha replied: “You are steeped in ignorance. You say your existence can be maintained to your liking, but that is not so, it is not permanent as you say…” (yatra hi nāma aniccaṃyeva samānaṃ niccanti vakkhati, addhuvaṃyeva samānaṃ dhuvanti vakkhati,..).

By the way, here it is important to note that the Pali word for “permanent” is “dhuva”, and not “nicca”.
The Buddha added, “..although you say there is no further release that can be attained, there is indeed a permanent release” (“santañca panaññaṃ uttari nissaraṇaṃ “natthaññaṃ uttari nissaraṇan”ti vakkhatī’ti.”

Then there is an account of how Māra the deva, having entered a certain company of Brahmas, spoke to encourage the Brahma. I will skip that account, in order to get to the crux of the matter.
Baka the Brahmā then replied to the Buddha: ‘But, good sir, I say “nicca” because it is so, I say “stable” because it is stable, I say “eternal” because it is eternal. There is no more suffering,…I have escaped from the cravings for patavi, apo, tejo, vayo dhatu..” (meaning he has overcome tanha for the sensual pleasures available in the kāma loka comprised from the satara maha dhatu).

The Buddha told the Baka Brahma that indeed he knew that the Baka Brhama had transcended the kāma loka, and was fully aware of his powers. The Buddha added that there were things in this world that the Brahma was not aware of: (1) There are higher Brahma realms, (2) Maha Brahma himself was in the Abhassara Brahma realm, died there and was now reborn in this lower Brahma realm. The Buddha told the Baka Brahma: “you neither know nor see those higher realms, but I know and see them”.

Here is the really relevant part of the Sutta where the Buddha tells Maha Brahama:”Pathaviṃ kho ahaṃ, brahme, pathavito abhiññāya yāvatā pathaviyā pathavattena ananubhūtaṃ tadabhiññāya pathaviṃ nāpahosiṃ, pathaviyā nāpahosiṃ, pathavito nāpahosiṃ, pathaviṃ meti nāpahosiṃ, pathaviṃ nābhivadiṃ…”

Translated: I, Brahma, knowing patavi to be just patavi (devoid of life), knowing the true nature of patavi, I do not take patavi to be me (no attachment to things in the kāma loka made out of the satara maha bhuta)”.

Then he repeated the same verse for the other three maha bhuta of which the bodies of beings in kāma loka are made of: apo, tejo, vayo.
Finally, he summarized it all in the following verse, which we discussed in the last post: “Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ, taṃ pathaviyā pathavattenaananubhūtaṃ, āpassa āpattena ananubhūtaṃ, tejassa tejattena ananubhūtaṃ, vāyassavāyattena ananubhūtaṃ, bhūtānaṃ bhūtattena ananubhūtaṃ, devānaṃ devattenaananubhūtaṃ, pajāpatissa pajāpatittena ananubhūtaṃ, brahmānaṃ brahmattenaananubhūtaṃ, ābhassarānaṃ ābhassarattena ananubhūtaṃ, subhakiṇhānaṃ subhakiṇhānaṃ subha­kiṇ­hattena ananubhūtaṃ, vehapphalānaṃ vehap­phalat­tena ananubhūtaṃ, abhibhussa abhibhuttena ananubhūtaṃ, sabbassa sabbattena ananubhūtaṃ.”.

Translated: “Viññāna is unseen, infinite, and leads to the rebirth process for all. With viññāna one cannot comprehend the real nature of patavi, āpo, tējo, vāyo, bhūta, deva, pajapti brahma, abhassara brahma, subhakinha brahma, vehapphala brahma, etc. and everything in this world (sabba)”.

See, “Bhūta and Yathābhūta – What Do They Really Mean“.
Then, the Buddha concluded: “Thus Brahmā, I am not merely on an exact equality with you as regards super-knowledge; I am indeed higher in knowledge”.

Then the Brhama challenged the Buddha saying that he is going to disappear and If the Buddha is indeed of higher knowledge, try to find him. But he was unable to hide from the Buddha.

Then the Buddha said, “‘Now I am vanishing from you, Brahmā. Find me if you can”. Of course the Brhama was unable to find the Buddha and thus had to concede defeat.

That is the essence of that long Sutta, that is relevant for this discussion.

13. We have to realize that indeed the Maha Brahmas has a very long lifetime of a quarter of the age of our universe (several billion years).

Furthermore, since brahmas do not have solid bodies like ours they are not subject to diseases or bodily pains. So, they live a peaceful life until their bhava is ended. So it is no surprise that the Baka Brahma thought that he had overcome all suffering by getting rid of the human body. See the post on “Body Types in 31 Realms – Importance of Manomaya Kaya” for details on bodies of beings in other realms.
But of course, the brahmas are not released from the apāyas, since they have only suppressed kāma rāga and have not removed any of the ten samyojana that bind one to the rebirth process (unless they had attained at least the Sotapanna stage of Nibbāna).
This should give us a lot to think about our suffering-causing body that lasts only about 100 years! There is absolutely nothing to be proud of one’s physical body or to think that it is worthwhile to take this foul body to be “mine”. That is one way to get rid of sakkaya ditthi.
The question is not whether there is a “self” or not. The question is whether it is wise to think that it is worthwhile to have the idea of a “self” which lasts less than a blink of eye in the samsāric scale, and gives so much suffering (and could lead to unimaginable suffering in future lives).

The above is from the post, "https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/na ... lly-means/". If anyone needs to look at the links referred to above, they can go to this post.

Lal
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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by Lal » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:31 am

I see you have doubt, rather than faith in the translations
Do you have faith in the translations? If so WHICH ONE?

This issue has been discussed for many years at various forums without a resolution. I see many different interpretations.

I not only do not have faith in many of these translations, but also can prove that they are wrong. This is because they are not consistent among themselves OR with other suttas in the Tipitaka. The correct translation should be consistent with ALL suttas, vinaya, and paticca samuppada, in the Tipitaka. This is why the Buddha said correct interpretations should be compatible with sutta, vinaya, and dhamma.

If you or anyone else can point point out a single sutta that is not consistent with my translation, we can discuss that.

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DooDoot
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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:36 am

Lal wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:19 pm
In this post, I describe a meaningful translation to the verse, “viññāṇāṁ anidassanaṁ anantaṁ sabbato pabhaṁ..” that is consistent with all the suttas in the Tipitaka. I would welcome any evidence to the contrary.
I can offer the most basic & logical evidence to the contrary, namely, in the suttas, nama-rupa and consciousness are mutually co-dependent, as follows:
Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

SN 12.67
With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality.

MN 9; SN 22.56
Name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.

SN 22.82
Where as in DN 11 & MN 49 (which are all teachings given to Brahma and Brahmins), viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ seems to exist while nama-rupa ceases, which is contrary to the principle of mutual co-dependence in SN 12.67, MN 9, SN 22.56 & SN 22.82. These would indicate there is something contextually different about viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ. In my opinion, it is a special teaching given to Brahmans in the language of Brahmanism.

Lal
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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by Lal » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:50 pm

The key point of confusion arises when one takes vinnana as consciousness. Vinnana is the defiled consciousness.

When one attains Arahanthood, one does not lose consciousness, but vinnana becomes purified.

This is why in the akusala-mula paticca samuppada (dependent origination) -- which starts with "avijja paccaya sankhara", "sankhara paccaya vinannam", "vinnana paccaya namarupa", ends up in "bhava" and "jati" and ends up in FUTURE suffering: "jara, marana, soka,..".

Akusala-mula PS cycles DO NOT operate for Arahants; they do not have vinnana; their citta do not contaminate beyond the "manasan" stage, where one is able to recognize other people, for example, but do not get attached to them.

So, those steps DooDoot mentioned do not occur for an Arahant: "vinnana paccaya namarupa" and "namarupa paccaya vinnanam".

As I explained in the writeup, anidassana vinnana simply means "vinnana cannot be seen". But why does one have to say that?
That is because vinnana is more than nama (which of course cannot be seen), and is the bridge to rupa formation (some of which can be seen), starting with "vinnana paccaya namarupa", and ending up with jati, where one is born with a physical body.

As I explained, vinnana does not really belong to the nama category, and it does not really belong to the rupa category either, as stated in the Majjhe Sutta (AN 6.61). One needs to read the references (links) in my original post, if one needs to examine this evidence, and understand these key ideas.

When one generates sankhara (more precisely abhisankhara) with avijja, that leads to vinnana, which is really a kamma bija for generating future bhava and jati. This is why in the Pathamabhava Sutta (AN 3.76) says: “Iti kho, ānanda, kammaṃ khettaṃ, viññāṇaṃ bījaṃ, taṇhā sneho..”
Translated: “Ānanda, deeds (kamma) are the field, viññāṇa is the seed, and craving (taṇhā) is the moisture..”

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cappuccino
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Re: Pali Term: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:18 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:31 am
I see you have doubt, rather than faith in the translations
Do you have faith in the translations? If so WHICH ONE?
I have faith in every translation. The issue of being misled is trivial.

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