Pali Term: Sati

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Dmytro
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Dmytro » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:11 am

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:I’m not sure if equanimity is limited to the 4th Jhana, even if that jhana is the paragon of equanimity.
Did I say that equanimity is limited to the 4th jhana?
Secondly, we see equanimity making its appearance in less rarified states, ie when there is either pain or pleasure. Take for example, MN 152's 6 āyatana analysis for the noble disciple whose practice on feelings is supposed to lead to equanimity. Even in MN 148, it is implicit that instead of succumbing to either rāgānusaya or paṭighānusaya, the appropriate reaction should be equanimity to pleasant and painful feelings respectively.
Equanimity is indeed always toward feelings, and not to defilements.
I don’t know about you, but I get the sense that the discernment of the presence of the āsavā is indeed accompanied by unpleasant feelings. Equanimity seems to be the only appropriate response, given that paṭighānusaya is universally condemned in the suttas.
āsavā may as well be accompanied by pleasant or neutral feelings.

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Dmytro » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:22 am

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:I too, used to interpret the anusayā in the above manner. It is a fair interpretation, based on the English translation given by Ven T to those passages dealing with the operation of the anusayā. BUT, is it a correct translation?
I quote the translations of Ven Thanissaro for the sake of convenience, and also disagree with his translation in this particular case.
It is clear that anusaya is not the mental reaction to feelings, but the sankhāra that drives the mental kamma in response to feelings. In this light, it is easy to now understand the present tense anuseti as meaning the sankhāra lies dormant together with feelings. It is not kamma, but the three mūlā which you nicely referenced from AN 3.68.
Thank you for the extended review. It would be worthwhile to start a thread on this Pali term.

Evidently you agree that 'paṭighānusaya' refers to attitude to feelings, particularly to pain.

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Sylvester » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:27 am

Dmytro wrote:
āsavā may as well be accompanied by pleasant or neutral feelings.
Thanks Dmytro.

I agree. But I was thinking of the special kind of grief mentioned in MN 44 -
Here a monk considers thus: 'When shall I enter upon and abide in that base that the noble ones now enter upon and abide in?' In one who thus generates a longing for the supreme liberations (pl), grief arises with that longing as condition.
It is obvious from the context that here, the meditator is trying to attain the jhanas, and what stands in his way are the defilements. Grief, as a cetasika vedanā flows from painful kāyika vedanā. I take the painful kāyika vedanā to arise on discernment that the defilements atthi (are present).

Anusaya as cause, condition, sankhāra for 'normal' grief is certainly confirmed by the above reading, where the special grief of meditators is caused instead by longing for the jhanas.

As long as I am careful to understand "attitude" to be a cause, condition, sankhāra that gives rise to a particular reaction towards feelings, I would be OK to accept anusaya as an "attitude".

:anjali:

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Dmytro » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:04 pm

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:It is obvious from the context that here, the meditator is trying to attain the jhanas, and what stands in his way are the defilements. Grief, as a cetasika vedanā flows from painful kāyika vedanā. I take the painful kāyika vedanā to arise on discernment that the defilements atthi (are present).
You have raised an important issue, so I have opened a new thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by UhBaUnTaUh » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:04 pm

Unforgetting is Sāti.

Attention is Sāti.
Parking this account.

I have been moved to another account.

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by badscooter » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:06 pm

Hello,
Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
  • And how, monks, does a monk live contemplating mental objects in mental objects?

    Herein, monks, a monk lives contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances.

    How, monks, does a monk live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances?

    Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me," or when sense-desire is not present, he knows, "There is no sense-desire in me." He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire comes to be.
    -- MN10
That's a good example of discernment of kinds of behaviour (dhamma-vicaya), with inroads to "four right efforts". There's no equanimity toward hindrances here.
Dmyrto,
Kind greetings. :smile:
I don't know how you came up with the above... It says a "monk knows", not a monk likes or dislikes. Please show which part says to have a non equanimous attribute towards any of the objects?

To know I have a desire in me means: I have an awareness that I have a desire in me. In other words I am aware of the desire in me.

English dictionary:
awareness - having knowledge of;
Rememebering - 1.) Have in or be able to bring to one's mind an awareness of (someone or something that one has seen, known, or experienced in the past). 2.) Do something that one has undertaken to do or that is necessary or advisable. 3.) To have or use the power of memory...etc


I understand your comment about discernment though.

with metta
:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Dmytro » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:13 pm

Hello Billymac,
Billymac29 wrote:I don't know how you came up with the above... It says a "monk knows", not a monk likes or dislikes. Please show which part says to have a non equanimous attribute towards any of the objects?
As discussed above, 'upekkha' (equanimity) refers to attitude to feelings. It does not relate to attitude to hindrances in any way.
To know I have a desire in me means: I have an awareness that I have a desire in me. In other words I am aware of the desire in me.
Certainly there's awareness in Satipatthana practice. That's the function of 'sampajanna'.
Rememebering - 1.) Have in or be able to bring to one's mind an awareness of (someone or something that one has seen, known, or experienced in the past). 2.) Do something that one has undertaken to do or that is necessary or advisable. 3.) To have or use the power of memory...etc
Here 'sati' as 'remembrance' does not relate to remembering the past events, but to:

"Definition of REMEMBRANCE

1: the state of bearing in mind"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remembrance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Meditator with developed 'sati' steadily bears in mind Buddha's instructions on what to watch for and how to apply the right efforts, cultivating skilful and abandoning unskilful behaviour.

with metta
:anjali:

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by badscooter » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:16 pm

Hello Dmytro,

you wrote:
Certainly there's awareness in Satipatthana practice. That's the function of 'sampajanna'.
True, however I think it also relates to sati. I think you're trying to pigeon hole the word awareness.
Here 'sati' as 'remembrance' does not relate to remembering the past events,

This sounds a little confusing. Because you then say the following.
Meditator with developed 'sati' steadily bears in mind Buddha's instructions on what to watch for and how to apply the right efforts, cultivating skilful and abandoning unskilful behaviour.
In order to "steadily bear in mind Buddha's instructions", you have to remember the instructions. The instructions are past events.
"Definition of REMEMBRANCE

1: the state of bearing in mind"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remembrance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bearing in mind was in my definition
Rememebering - 1.) Have in or be able to bring to one's mind an awareness of ...
to bear = to bring to. Bear in that sense means to put forth, move.

Remembrance: re·mem·brance/riˈmembrəns/ Noun: The action of remembering something.

I can rephrase your statement: A meditator with developed 'sati' remembers Buddha's instructions on what to watch for...etc


If one is going to give 'sati' the definition with the forms of the verb remember, then one has to take into account that awareness is part of an english definition of the word remember and therefore is linked to all its tenses and forms (i.e. remembering, remembered, remembrance...etc).

if one remembers, then one has an awareness of.

may all be well
:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by badscooter » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:23 pm

Sylvester wrote:Hi Dmytro

Hmm, I really can't see much difference between remembrance versus recollection.
There isn't any. Its in the definition.

"to have recollection (sometimes followed by of )": i.e. The old man had remembrance of his youth.

Remembrance and recollection are listed as synonyms.

all be well :smile:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by badscooter » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:10 pm

I believe the "bare" in bare awareness or bare attention is attributed to such suttas:

from access to insight:

Bāhiya Sutta:
"Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: in the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed [2] will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized. Practising in this way, Bāhiya, you will not be 'because of that'. When you are not 'because of that' you will not be 'in that'. And when you are not 'in that' then you will be neither here not beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

To say "will be merely" means unadorned or not decorated; without extras; nothing added or taken; nothing hidden..etc

If we look at the english word BARE :
1.
without covering or clothing; naked; nude: i.e. bare legs.
2.
without the usual furnishings, contents, etc.: i.e bare walls.
3.
open to view; unconcealed; undisguised: i.e. his bare dislike of neckties.
4.
unadorned; bald; plain: i.e. the bare facts.
5.
(of cloth) napless or threadbare.

One can see the similarities. I believe linking mindfulness with suttas like this one might bring one to an understanding of where 'bare awareness' might have been coined.

may all be well
:smile:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Hanzze » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:20 am

When you are not 'because of that' you will not be 'in that'. And when you are not 'in that' then you will be neither here not beyond nor in between the two.
1. How could you come there if you have not compared it's qualities step by step (from raw to the fine, without thinking that the fine is already an absence as a reminder of a maybe wrong track)
2. It is not about action but more of a aim to be reached.
3. I guess 'in that' is often that what we might call bare
4. "when you are..." needs to remember and for sure well if it is stanza (btw. thanks for sharing)
5. Not to forget that "bare" would need to be maintained (by remembering bare/not bare in a sence of [almost] naked/clean - covered/dirty) as it is not unconditioned
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Dmytro » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:32 am

Hello Billymac,
Billymac29 wrote:If one is going to give 'sati' the definition with the forms of the verb remember, then one has to take into account that awareness is part of an english definition of the word remember and therefore is linked to all its tenses and forms (i.e. remembering, remembered, remembrance...etc).

if one remembers, then one has an awareness of.
I'm drawing here upon Pali passages, and not upon English definitions. If you can provide a Pali passage where 'sati' functions as 'awareness', please do so.
There's simply no such passages.

Simlarly, I draw upon Pali passages to show the role of 'sati' as 'remembrance' (see posts above). If you can provide the passages illustrating how 'sati' functions in meditative context as recollection of past events, please do so.
I believe the "bare" in bare awareness or bare attention is attributed to such suttas:
The origins of 'bare attention' concept are discussed elsewhere:

On Some Definitions of Mindfulness by Rupert Gethin
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p205445" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The author of this concept didn't rely on the Bahiya sutta in his works.

The passage from Bahiya sutta you quoted does not refer to 'sati', the meaning of which we discuss in this thread, but rather to abiding in emptiness (sunnata) or recognizing the impersonal nature (anatta).

:anjali:

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by badscooter » Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:29 pm

Dmytro wrote:
I'm drawing here upon Pali passages, and not upon English definitions. If you can provide a Pali passage where 'sati' functions as 'awareness', please do so.
There's simply no such passages.

Simlarly, I draw upon Pali passages to show the role of 'sati' as 'remembrance' (see posts above). If you can provide the passages illustrating how 'sati' functions in meditative context as recollection of past events, please do so.
Respectfully, you can't translate meanings of words from one language to another without using their correct definitions. If your trying to find an english word to translate a pali word then you need to use the definitions. The pali passages I use for 'sati' give the meaning "to remember". Within the meaning of the word 'remember' is the word and meaning of 'awareness'.

I think your misunderstanding me and the language. If you draw upon Pali passages to show the role of 'sati' as 'remembrance', then you have to incorporate awareness as 'function' in those same passages... You can't say this pali word has the meaning of 'remembrance' but not the meaning of 'awareness'. That doesn't make sense. I don't know if you are a native speaker of english or not, but as a teacher I can tell you it's perfectly find to add in "awareness of" to any translation of the word 'remembrance'. If you don't want to accept that, then I suggest trying to find another meaning of the word 'sati' other then 'remembrance' and all derivatives of the word.

The same passages you draw upon to show 'remembrance', I can use to show "to remember" hence also "awareness of". Sorry but you can't have one without the other. You're trying to separate meaning of words that you can't separate. "Remembrance" has the same root meaning as "remember", "recollect", "remembering", "rememberability",...etc which is an awareness of something.

may all be well
:smile:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by badscooter » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:19 am

Dmytro wrote:
I believe the "bare" in bare awareness or bare attention is attributed to such suttas:
The origins of 'bare attention' concept are discussed elsewhere:

On Some Definitions of Mindfulness by Rupert Gethin
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p205445" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The author of this concept didn't rely on the Bahiya sutta in his works.

The passage from Bahiya sutta you quoted does not refer to 'sati', the meaning of which we discuss in this thread, but rather to abiding in emptiness (sunnata) or recognizing the impersonal nature (anatta).

:anjali:
I wasn't showing reference to sati, but to the english word 'bare'.

Considering the Buddha's teachings are thousands of years old, and have been passed orally for hundreds of years, I don't think it is skillful to nit pick over exact meanings of words in translations. It is highly doubtful that anything in the tipitika (pali or not) is the actual words used by the Buddha himself. The best we can do, logically, is to get an over all understanding of what the suttas are talking about and try to apply that to our practice.

Having said that,
Words like "bare attention", "choiceless awareness", etc.. are not just genuine to the Theravada lineage. Such practices date back centuries in the Tibetan and Zen traditions of Mahayana tradition. Such meditations are used in Objectless Shinay and Shikantaza from Tibet and Zen respectively. These came into effect well before Krishnamurti, Nyanaponika, and Rupert Gethin were ever even born let alone a thought.

"On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.'

Dispassion - objectivity and detachment; the state or quality of being unemotional or emotionally uninvolved.


with metta :anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Dmytro » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:39 am

Hi Billymac,

On this forum, and particularly in the Pali terms threads, I appreciate clear arguments with precise Pali glosses and references from people who know at least some Pali.

If you don't believe that the Tipitaka contains the actual words used by the Buddha, then we don't have a basis for meaningful discussion, and I would ask you not to post in this thread.

:anjali:

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