Pali Term: Sati

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
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Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Polar Bear » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.
Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.
That doesn't follow. This isn't the whole of the practice.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:28 pm

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.
Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.
That doesn't follow. This isn't the whole of the practice.
It does follow from the small bit that you said, and, of course, it is not the whole of the practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

danieLion
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by danieLion » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:55 am

Hey, you're not Dmytro! ;)
polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:In MN 105 the Buddha "defines" mindfulness/sati as a probing knife with no mention of it's recollective function.

What say you to this, Dmytro?
Actually, it's just called a probe not a knife....
:oops:
polarbuddha101 wrote:In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison. Of course, I suppose in this case sati may also be covering not just remembrance but also sampajanna whereas in more detailed descriptions the Buddha separates the two.

:namaste:
There's no mention of remembering. Where did you get that from? In fact, the text makes it clear that the probing is for current craving, not remembered craving.

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by danieLion » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:59 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.
Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.
That doesn't follow. This isn't the whole of the practice.
This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:38 am

danieLion wrote: There's no mention of remembering. Where did you get that from? In fact, the text makes it clear that the probing is for current craving, not remembered craving.
Right, but you have to remember that what you're trying to do is look for current craving. If you forget that you're probing for craving then you'll stop probing for it. In other words, you have to keep in mind that you're trying to look for and then abandon craving and follow the eightfold path.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:40 am

danieLion wrote: This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.
Yeah, and sati isn't just about remembering to see craving as an arrow, it's also remembering to follow the eightfold path and remembering to keep the breath in mind or remembering to stay focused on any of the other satipatthanas and remembering to put forth right effort in doing so.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:50 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote: This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.
Yeah, and sati isn't just about remembering to see craving as an arrow, it's also remembering to follow the eightfold path and remembering to keep the breath in mind or remembering to stay focused on any of the other satipatthanas and remembering to put forth right effort in doing so.
But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the texts, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts? Basically, what are the factors of sati as found in the suttas according to you? Because I think that what you consider to be sati I consider to be sati and sampajanna and that this may in fact be the only difference but I could be wrong so please elaborate if you would.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by danieLion » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote: This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.
Yeah, and sati isn't just about remembering to see craving as an arrow, it's also remembering to follow the eightfold path and remembering to keep the breath in mind or remembering to stay focused on any of the other satipatthanas and remembering to put forth right effort in doing so.
But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by danieLion » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:46 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?
No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:57 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?
No. While Dmytro is to be commended for his efforts here, what is obvious in the responses counter to his position is that sati, all by itself, is a richly nuanced word and "remembrance" by itself, without significant qualifications or allowances of its nuances, does not cover it for sati. If you read through this thread, which is not too long that it cannot be easily done, you can see that, especially, ironically enough, with some of the references Dmytro quotes, such as Gethin and Jakes, and such quotes as: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p205438

And a few more point raised above:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p205548

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&start=40

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p205875

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p214404

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p215840

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p225716
Basically, what are the factors of sati as found in the suttas according to you? Because I think that what you consider to be sati I consider to be sati and sampajanna and that this may in fact be the only difference but I could be wrong so please elaborate if you would.
Much of what you are asking here, as the links show, has already been dealt with in this thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:03 am

danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?
No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....
I'm not ignoring those things, those are the things that one has to remember to be aware of, and to do so correctly.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:08 am

danieLion wrote:Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?
I don't think you're fully appreciating how greatly deluded we are because we forget to stay fully aware of what's actually going on in the present moment.
"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:25 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
"He is mindful, able to remember & recollect what was done & said a long time ago.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Writings/Min ... wisdom.pdf

http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/BMIMC% ... ulness.MP3

Remembrance really is a good translation for sati. In meditation, sati is remembering to stay aware/alert (sampajanna) of an aspect of experience in the present, e.g. remembering to stay aware of breathing as it is occurring in your experience.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... endas.html
Thank you for the great links, Polarbuddha :anjali:

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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:44 am

polarbuddha101 wrote:
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Writings/Min ... wisdom.pdf

Remembrance really is a good translation for sati. In meditation, sati is remembering to stay aware/alert (sampajanna) of an aspect of experience in the present, e.g. remembering to stay aware of breathing as it is occurring in your experience
I had missed this. Dmytro's comment on it caught my attention. In reading through Kearney's fine discussion, it is nice to see that it makes my point of how very nuanced sati is as it is used in the suttas. "Remembrance" would not be the first word I would choose to translate sati. Mindfulness works fairly well, and it helps to have a careful discussion such as Kearny's in mind when using it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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