Pali Term: Sati

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
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Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Polar Bear »

Dmytro wrote:
Thank you for the great links, Polarbuddha :anjali:
No hay problemo.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
danieLion
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by danieLion »

polarbuddha101 wrote:Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?
danieLion wrote:No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....
polarbuddha101 wrote:I'm not ignoring those things, those are the things that one has to remember to be aware of, and to do so correctly.
This is circular reasoning.
danieLion
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by danieLion »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?
I don't think you're fully appreciating how greatly deluded we are because we forget to stay fully aware of what's actually going on in the present moment.
1) The Buddha didn't teach momentariness (there's a Topic here but I ain't looking for it cuz of the search glich).
2) By your (Dmytro's, Thanissaro's, etc...) comments, sati as recollection is recollection about things past, and "awareness" is a "bad" translation.
3) We're not so greatly deluded that we can't see that sati means much more than mere recollection as the Buddha taught it.
4) Some of use are more deluded than others.
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Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

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danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?
danieLion wrote:No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....
polarbuddha101 wrote:I'm not ignoring those things, those are the things that one has to remember to be aware of, and to do so correctly.
This is circular reasoning.
No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.
Yeah, so you are saying, but there isfar better reason to go with Kearny's far more nuanced reading on this than the overly simple and misleading "remembrance."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

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danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?
I don't think you're fully appreciating how greatly deluded we are because we forget to stay fully aware of what's actually going on in the present moment.
1) The Buddha didn't teach momentariness (there's a Topic here but I ain't looking for it cuz of the search glich).
2) By your (Dmytro's, Thanissaro's, etc...) comments, sati as recollection is recollection about things past, and "awareness" is a "bad" translation.
3) We're not so greatly deluded that we can't see that sati means much more than mere recollection as the Buddha taught it.
4) Some of use are more deluded than others.
1) I'm not referring to that doctrine. Go ahead and take out the word moment, it makes no difference. Call it the experienced present if you want.
2) It is recollection of the past and remembering to stay aware of the experienced present.
3) Just because sati means memory/remembrance/recollection doesn't mean that it isn't related to the rest of the path. In practice it has a very important and complex function because one has to remember so many things and remember how to do so many things and remember to stay fully present as you're doing them.
4) Indeed, but that has nothing to do with the meaning of sati and now I get the feeling you're just being snide which is rather unnecessary.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

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tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.
Yeah, so you are saying, but there isfar better reason to go with Kearny's far more nuanced reading on this than the overly simple and misleading "remembrance."
I'm just saying that's what sati literally means. Kearney said it too although he said sati literally means memory. I'm not saying it's function isn't nuanced though or that it isn't related to being present because it is. But one has to remember and not forget to stay present in order to actually do so. And I am going with Kearney's reading I'm just saying that remembrance isn't a bad translation. ANY english translation of sati has to be qualified by understanding the context the word is used in.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:
No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.
Yeah, so you are saying, but there isfar better reason to go with Kearny's far more nuanced reading on this than the overly simple and misleading "remembrance."
I'm just saying that's what sati literally means. Kearney said it too although he said sati literally means memory. I'm not saying it's function isn't nuanced though or that it isn't related to being present because it is. But one has to remember and not forget to stay present in order to actually do so. And I am going with Kearney's reading I'm just saying that remembrance isn't a bad translation. ANY english translation of sati has to be qualified by understanding the context the word is used in.
What you are seriously failing to understand here is that meaning is determined by usage. Anyone who does translation work should understand this. Sati, as we can see from the various quotes from the suttas and from various scholars quoted above, is used in various ways throughout the suttas. "Remembrance" -- in light of the meditative functions described in the suttas -- really is not a good catch-all translation. It is misleading, unless you are willing to redefine "remembrance," but why do that, since that would only to the confusion?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

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tiltbillings wrote:What you are seriously failing to understand here is that meaning is determined by usage. Anyone who does translation work should understand this. Sati, as we can see from the various quotes from the suttas and from various scholars quoted above, is used in various ways throughout the suttas. "Remembrance" -- in light of the meditative functions described in the suttas -- really is not a good catch-all translation. It is misleading, unless you are willing to redefine "remembrance," but why do that, since that would only to the confusion?
No, I get what you're saying. I basically agree. The problem I find is that a lot of 'definitions' of sati espoused by people today leave out the most prevalent characteristic of sati, which has to with memory/remembrance. This is why when you ask a bunch of people at a meditation center what mindfulness means they give a whole lot of answers about bare awareness, non-reactive awareness, acceptive awareness, etc. etc (I'm thinking of a talk that Gil Fronsdal gave on sati at IMC where he asked people to say what they thought mindfulness/sati meant). The problem is that awareness is overemphasized when sati's primary function is remembering to stay aware, i.e. to have sampajanna, and remembering to put forth right effort and remembering the rest of the eightfold path and how to put it into practice. The teachers all probably know that sati has alot to do with remembrance but the students don't seem to. I wouldn't bother trying to get people to stop using the word mindfulness either because it works fine anyways but understanding how important remembrance is in sati is important. Another decent translation of sati is retention.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What you are seriously failing to understand here is that meaning is determined by usage. Anyone who does translation work should understand this. Sati, as we can see from the various quotes from the suttas and from various scholars quoted above, is used in various ways throughout the suttas. "Remembrance" -- in light of the meditative functions described in the suttas -- really is not a good catch-all translation. It is misleading, unless you are willing to redefine "remembrance," but why do that, since that would only to the confusion?
No, I get what you're saying. I basically agree. The problem I find is that a lot of 'definitions' of sati espoused by people today leave out the most prevalent characteristic of sati, which has to with memory/remembrance. This is why when you ask a bunch of people at a meditation center what mindfulness means they give a whole lot of answers about bare awareness, non-reactive awareness, acceptive awareness, etc. etc (I'm thinking of a talk that Gil Fronsdal gave on sati at IMC where he asked people to say what they thought mindfulness/sati meant). The problem is that awareness is overemphasized when sati's primary function is remembering to stay aware, i.e. to have sampajanna, and remembering to put forth right effort and remembering the rest of the eightfold path and how to put it into practice. The teachers all probably know that sati has alot to do with remembrance but the students don't seem to. I wouldn't bother trying to get people to stop using the word mindfulness either because it works fine anyways but understanding how important remembrance is in sati is important. Another decent translation of sati is retention.
Retention? As in urinary retention? But, again, in reading your above paragraph, I can only shrug my shoulders. You are still missing the what is really central to sati.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

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tiltbillings wrote:Retention? As in urinary retention? But, again, in reading your above paragraph, I can only shrug my shoulders. You are still missing the what is really central to sati.
As in retaining something in mind which can include the present moment or the past.

I don't think I'm missing it. After reading Kearney, Thanissaro, Gunaratana and others' writings about sati I think I have a pretty good idea of what it is and how to use it. But anyway, :shrug:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Retention? As in urinary retention? But, again, in reading your above paragraph, I can only shrug my shoulders. You are still missing the what is really central to sati.
As in retaining something in mind which can include the present moment or the past.

I don't think I'm missing it. After reading Kearney, Thanissaro, Gunaratana and others' writings about sati I think I have a pretty good idea of what it is and how to use it.
Add to that Ven Bodhi, Analayo, Rupert Gethin. A bit more of a nuanced approach rather than ball-peen hammer of "remembrance" would do far better justice to the dynamic of sati as it is actually used in the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by danieLion »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?
danieLion wrote:No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....
polarbuddha101 wrote:I'm not ignoring those things, those are the things that one has to remember to be aware of, and to do so correctly.
This is circular reasoning.
No it isn't. I'm talking about the definition of a word not making a logical argument. I'm saying remembrance is sati and anapana sati is remembrance of breathing. It's all rather simple.
The definition? There's only one?

I know you're not making an arument. Going in circles isn't an arguing; it's imploding.
danieLion
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by danieLion »

polarbuddha101 wrote:
danieLion wrote:Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?
I don't think you're fully appreciating how greatly deluded we are because we forget to stay fully aware of what's actually going on in the present moment.
danieLion wrote:1) The Buddha didn't teach momentariness (there's a Topic here but I ain't looking for it cuz of the search glich).
2) By your (Dmytro's, Thanissaro's, etc...) comments, sati as recollection is recollection about things past, and "awareness" is a "bad" translation.
3) We're not so greatly deluded that we can't see that sati means much more than mere recollection as the Buddha taught it.
4) Some of use are more deluded than others.
polarbuddha101 wrote:1) I'm not referring to that doctrine. Go ahead and take out the word moment, it makes no difference. Call it the experienced present if you want.
2) It is recollection of the past and remembering to stay aware of the experienced present.
How do you know when the past ends, the present begins, and the future starts?
polarbuddha101 wrote:3) Just because sati means memory/remembrance/recollection doesn't mean that it isn't related to the rest of the path. In practice it has a very important and complex function...
above you said it was all very simple. So, which is it?
polarbuddha101 wrote:...because one has to remember so many things and remember how to do so many things and remember to stay fully present as you're doing them.
4) Indeed, but that has nothing to do with the meaning of sati and now I get the feeling you're just being snide which is rather unnecessary.
Feelings are very deceptive.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Polar Bear »

danieLion wrote:
I know you're not making an arument. Going in circles isn't an arguing; it's imploding.
You're reading a faulty logical operation into what I wrote that isn't there. My proposition that Sati means remembrance did not include any prior logical operation. Given this, the proposition that sati means remembrance, I then set forth a perfectly logical conclusion that anapana sati could be translated as remembrance of breathing.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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