Pali Term: Sati

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Alex123
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Alex123 »

I ask for forgiveness if this was asked and answered before.

Doesn't consciousness already includes attention to something, awareness of?

So one cant cultivate what already is inherently there. But if by sati we mean remembrance of Dhamma*, then that is something beneficial we can do.

*Example: If one sees attractive person, one should remember "mindfulness of the body" (kāyagatāsati).

If we look the context in which sati occurs, it suggests far more than mere bare awareness.
Dhammānussati, saṅghānussati, sīlānussati, cāgānussati,devatānussati, ānāpānassati,maraṇassati, kāyagatāsati, upasamānussati...
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:I ask for forgiveness if this was asked and answered before.

Doesn't consciousness already includes attention to something, awareness of?

So one cant cultivate what already is inherently there. But if by sati we mean remembrance of Dhamma*, then that is something beneficial we can do.

*Example: If one sees attractive person, one should remember "mindfulness of the body" (kāyagatāsati).

If we look the context in which sati occurs, it suggests far more than mere bare awareness.
Dhammānussati, saṅghānussati, sīlānussati, cāgānussati,devatānussati, ānāpānassati,maraṇassati, kāyagatāsati, upasamānussati...
You seem to want to kick poor "bare awareness" in the teeth and then stomp on it some more. The problem is that your "bare awareness" seems to be a straw man. Since this is the "Classical Mahavihara Theravāda" section the answer to your question can be found in "Classical Mahavihara Theravāda" texts and what is "inherently there" can be cultivated.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
porpoise wrote:No, I'm not fluent in Pali. I suppose I'm assuming that the translations available are broadly correct, and that the meaning of language is dependent on context and can vary.
Do you see a major problem with sati meaning "paying attention" in the context of the Satipattana Sutta, and if so why?
Translations available represent specific schools of meditational practice. For example, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi is a student of Ven. Nyanaponika.
So he is; however, there are plently of other translations out there. Do give us an example of a translation that is not corrupted by Ven Nyanaponika. Let us see what a pure translation, non-corrupted by a particular understanding translation, looks like.
Understanding of terms informs the practice. For the beginner this may not be a problem, however for the advanced practice good understanding of terms is essential.
Some teachers write works specifically addressed to the misconception of 'paying attention' as the whole practice, e.g. Sayadaw U Tejaniya, "Awareness Alone Is Not Enough".
That is a standard variation of the Burmese Vipassana practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Which is to say that sati is not simply remembering. From the same book, page 32, Gethin: "What is meant, I think, is that sati is understood as a quality of mind that 'stands near' or 'serves' the mind; it watches over the mind. One might say that it is a form of 'presence of mind'."
Seems like Rupert Gethin's thoughts evolved gradually, and in his recent article "On some definitions of mindfulness" he speaks straightforwardly about 'remembrance' (see post above . . .).

It is sometimes hard to break out of the spell of commonly accepted notions.
And it seems like Gethin, in his essay ON SOME DEFINITIONS OF MINDFULNESS, has no problem with "presence of mind" as indicating an aspect of sati, and we see him using both "remember" and 'presence of mind" in the same sentence as indicating aspects of sati:
  • The term is related in Buddhist texts to two expressions in Pali, mut.t.hā sati and upat.t.hā sati,
    that literally mean ‘mindfulness that is confused’ and ‘mindfulness that is at hand’,
    but which can perhaps be rendered more idiomatically and even exactly as
    ‘absentmindedness’ and ‘presence of mind’. Mindfulness for Buddhist texts, it
    seems, thus has something of the quality of being ‘on the ball’.
    page 271
  • A simile found elsewhere (S IV 194) likens mindfulness directly to a gatekeeper
    guarding a city (the body) with six gates (the senses). The characterization of
    mindfulness as guarding and as like a gatekeeper seems closely related to
    mindfulness in its capacities of remembering and presence of mind. The
    suggestion seems to be that if we have mindfulness then we will remember what
    it is that we should be doing in a given moment (watching the breath, say, or
    paying attention to posture), and thus when perceptions, feelings, states of mind
    and emotions that might interfere with this arise, we will have the presence of
    mind
    not to let them overcome our minds and take hold.
    page 272
  • That mindfulness is seen as entailing the accomplishment of a sustained
    presence of mind is perhaps brought out by a particularly vivid simile (S V, 170).
    Mindfulness of the body is likened to the case of a man who must pay attention to
    a bowl brim full of oil that he is carrying on his head. The man must do this before
    a crowd that has gathered to watch the most beautiful girl of the land as she
    dances and sings; and as the man moves between the girl and the crowd with
    bowl on his head, he is followed by another man with a drawn sword who, if he
    spills so much as a drop of the oil, will cut of his head. In such circumstances, it is
    suggested, the man will pay very careful attention to the bowl of oil on his head
    and not be distracted by the crowd or girl; with a similar quality of attention the
    monk should cultivate mindfulness of the body.
    page 274
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sylvester
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Sylvester »

I have to confess that, try as I might, I find it very difficulty to apply remembrance/recollection as a function of sati in the context of the Satipaṭṭhāna suttas.

Leave aside the fact that sarati as a verb does not pop up. It just feels odd that sati as memory is to be established (paccupaṭṭhita), when all the operative verbs are pajānāti (discerns), sampajānakārī (applies awareness). These all point to something going on when dealing with present-time experiences, especially in the contemplation of feelings where the present participle vediyamāna is employed. What should one be remembering, especially when the most basic formula of mindfulness is reduced to simply -
Atthi (subject of mindfulness)ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya patissatimattāya

...just enough for ñāṇa, just enough for patissati
If one were remembering "Atthi (subject of mindfulness)", one would be recollecting a past experience, whereas the context makes it clear that present experiences are being meant.

The only verb in those suttas which admits of some form of recollection would be upasaṃharati in the context of the cemetary contemplations where imagination (passeyya sarīraṃ, passa being in the optative) is employed. Paccavekkhati in the context of contemplation of impurity of the body also looks like the work of the imagination, therefore seems appropriate for recollection, unless one interprets this verb as an exercise of psychic powers into the innards.

But generally, the most frequent verb used is pajānāti, which does seem to read like real-time awareness based on the present experience.

If I were to venture a guess, I would say that the trope sati-sampajañña in the Satipaṭṭhāna suttas is nothing more than a set of synonyms arranged according to the waxing syllable principle. You see a hint of this in the reversed set ñāṇamattā patissatimattā above.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

Alex123 wrote:If we look the context in which sati occurs, it suggests far more than mere bare awareness.
Dhammānussati, saṅghānussati, sīlānussati, cāgānussati,devatānussati, ānāpānassati,maraṇassati, kāyagatāsati, upasamānussati...
As the Satipatthana-Vibhanga explains 'sati' in the context of Satipatthana:

“Satimā” ti. Tattha, katamā sati?
“Mindful”. Herein, what is mindfulness?

Yā sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā,
That which is mindfulness, recollection, recall, mindfulness, remembrance,

dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā,
bearing (in mind), not losing, not confusing,

sati 17 Satindriyaṁ Satibalaṁ Sammāsati – ayaṁ vuccati “sati”.
mindfulness, the Faculty of Mindfulness, the Strength of Mindfulness, Right Mindfulness – this is called “mindfulness”.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
Alex123 wrote:If we look the context in which sati occurs, it suggests far more than mere bare awareness.
Dhammānussati, saṅghānussati, sīlānussati, cāgānussati,devatānussati, ānāpānassati,maraṇassati, kāyagatāsati, upasamānussati...
As the Satipatthana-Vibhanga explains 'sati' in the context of Satipatthana:

“Satimā” ti. Tattha, katamā sati?
“Mindful”. Herein, what is mindfulness?

Yā sati anussati paṭissati sati saraṇatā,
That which is mindfulness, recollection, recall, mindfulness, remembrance,

dhāraṇatā apilāpanatā asammussanatā,
bearing (in mind), not losing, not confusing,

sati 17 Satindriyaṁ Satibalaṁ Sammāsati – ayaṁ vuccati “sati”.
mindfulness, the Faculty of Mindfulness, the Strength of Mindfulness, Right Mindfulness – this is called “mindfulness”.
Interestingly, this text does not contradict Gethin or Vens Bodhi and Nyanaponika.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:Do give us an example of a translation that is not corrupted by Ven Nyanaponika. Let us see what a pure translation, non-corrupted by a particular understanding translation, looks like.
If I may ask, who are the plural 'us' on behalf of whom you are speaking?

And why does this group of people think that Ven Nyanaponika's translation is "corrupted"? I wouldn't say so.

Why should I present here a 'pure translation'? IMHO, a vibrant and living tradition, is alive with the discussion of the key terms. The open discussion of terms is what allows for a future translations to be better.

Since I am a native speaker of Ukrainian and Russian, I work on the translations in these languages, sharing with you my research of the key terms.
I know this research has already been useful for some native English speakers who work on new English translations.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:And it seems like Gethin, in his essay ON SOME DEFINITIONS OF MINDFULNESS, has no problem with "presence of mind" as indicating an aspect of sati, and we see him using both "remember" and 'presence of mind" in the same sentence as indicating aspects of sati:
Are there any problems with 'presence of mind'?

"Definition of PRESENCE OF MIND

: self-control so maintained in an emergency or in an embarrassing situation that one can say or do the right thing"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 0of%20mind" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Sati" is indeed maintained in such a way thay one can say or do a right thing.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do give us an example of a translation that is not corrupted by Ven Nyanaponika. Let us see what a pure translation, non-corrupted by a particular understanding translation, looks like.
If I may ask, who are the plural 'us' on behalf of whom you are speaking?
Those of us who are reading this thread.
And why does this group of people think that Ven Nyanaponika's translation is "corrupted"? I wouldn't say so.
You seemed to imply that there is a problem with Ven Bodhi's Ven Nyanaponika influenced translations, but if that is not the case, then I am glad to be wrong and delighted to be corrected.
Why should I present here a 'pure translation'? IMHO, a vibrant and living tradition, is alive with the discussion of the key terms. The open discussion of terms is what allows for a future translations to be better.
A vibrant and living tradition, yes, very much so, which is why something such "bare attention" warrants discussion as an idea that helps bring out, highlight, aspects of awareness practice. I find the dismissals of bare attention unfortunate, especially some of the more remarkably stupid ones that liken it to what a sniper does or what an animal or child does. There is definitely value in wanting clarify what is meant by the term and by the practice, and there is value in criticizing some of the fluffy-bunny notions of that tend to divorce it from it Dhamma context.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:I have to confess that, try as I might, I find it very difficulty to apply remembrance/recollection as a function of sati in the context of the Satipaṭṭhāna suttas.

Leave aside the fact that sarati as a verb does not pop up. It just feels odd that sati as memory is to be established (paccupaṭṭhita), when all the operative verbs are pajānāti (discerns), sampajānakārī (applies awareness). These all point to something going on when dealing with present-time experiences, especially in the contemplation of feelings where the present participle vediyamāna is employed. What should one be remembering, especially when the most basic formula of mindfulness is reduced to simply -
Atthi (subject of mindfulness)ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya patissatimattāya

...just enough for ñāṇa, just enough for patissati
Satipatthana suttas don't and shouldn't explain the functions of 'sati' - they explain the four ways of establishing 'sati' (sati-upatthana).

The mathematically concise formula from the Satipatthana sutta:

Atthi dhammā ti vā panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya patissatimattāya

"Or his mindfulness that 'There are mental qualities' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

is explained in more detail in Dvedhavitakka sutta:

"Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply keeps himself mindful of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply kept myself mindful of 'those mental qualities.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This formula refers to a certain stage of practice which Ven Thanissaro Bhikkhu calls 'non-fashioning'.
Last edited by Assaji on Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:Those of us who are reading this thread.
AFAIK, everyone reading this thread poses questions and posts messages on his own.
You seemed to imply that there is a problem with Ven Bodhi's Ven Nyanaponika influenced translations, but if that is not the case, then I am glad to be wrong and delighted to be corrected.
I highly respect Ven Bodhi's and Nyanaponika's work. I think they would agree that there is a space for further impovement - and that's what I would like to happen.
A vibrant and living tradition, yes, very much so, which is why something such "bare attention" warrants discussion as an idea that helps bring out, highlight, aspects of awareness practice. I find the dismissals of bare attention unfortunate, especially some of the more remarkably stupid ones that liken it to what a sniper does or what an animal or child does. There is definitely value in wanting clarify what is meant by the term and by the practice, and there is value in criticizing some of the fluffy-bunny notions of that tend to divorce it from it Dhamma context.
I don't dismiss 'bare attention'. May it be used by those who find it useful. It certainly has its merits.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And it seems like Gethin, in his essay ON SOME DEFINITIONS OF MINDFULNESS, has no problem with "presence of mind" as indicating an aspect of sati, and we see him using both "remember" and 'presence of mind" in the same sentence as indicating aspects of sati:
Are there any problems with 'presence of mind'?

"Definition of PRESENCE OF MIND

: self-control so maintained in an emergency or in an embarrassing situation that one can say or do the right thing"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 0of%20mind" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Sati" is indeed maintained in such a way that one can say or do a right thing.
Yes, well, speaking as a native speaker, doing something with "presence of mind" also implies, carries the idea of, being attentive, focused in doing a task. And notice that Gethin, I would say quite correctly, stated: The characterization of mindfulness as guarding and as like a gatekeeper seems closely related to mindfulness in its capacities of remembering and presence of mind, which is to say, highlighting two aspects of sati/mindfulness -- remembering and presence of mind. The point being that sati is far more than merely remembering.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:Yes, well, speaking as a native speaker, doing something with "presence of mind" also implies, carries the idea of, being attentive, focused in doing a task. And notice that Gethin, I would say quite correctly, stated: The characterization of mindfulness as guarding and as like a gatekeeper seems closely related to mindfulness in its capacities of remembering and presence of mind, which is to say, highlighting two aspects of sati/mindfulness -- remembering and presence of mind. The point being that sati is far more than merely remembering.
It's a very specific remembrance - to apply the 'four right efforts', which alerts to be attentive and focused on the task, as illustrated by your quote from Gethin's article:
tiltbillings wrote:
  • That mindfulness is seen as entailing the accomplishment of a sustained
    presence of mind is perhaps brought out by a particularly vivid simile (S V, 170).
    Mindfulness of the body is likened to the case of a man who must pay attention to
    a bowl brim full of oil that he is carrying on his head. The man must do this before
    a crowd that has gathered to watch the most beautiful girl of the land as she
    dances and sings; and as the man moves between the girl and the crowd with
    bowl on his head, he is followed by another man with a drawn sword who, if he
    spills so much as a drop of the oil, will cut of his head. In such circumstances, it is
    suggested, the man will pay very careful attention to the bowl of oil on his head
    and not be distracted by the crowd or girl; with a similar quality of attention the
    monk should cultivate mindfulness of the body.
    page 274
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
It's a very specific remembrance - to apply the 'four right efforts', which alerts to be attentive and focused on the task, as illustrated by your quote from Gethin's article:
That mindfulness is seen as entailing the accomplishment of a sustained
presence of mind
is perhaps brought out by a particularly vivid simile (S V, 170).
Mindfulness of the body is likened to the case of a man who must pay attention to
a bowl brim full of oil that he is carrying on his head.
It would seem, by the words Gethin uses here, that the point is that sati, mindfulness, is a bit more than "remembrance." Or "remembrance" is being extended considerably in its meaning, beyond its usual meaning -- mindfulness, sustained presence of mind, paying attention. Sati: mindfulness in its capacities of remembering and presence of mind, an attentive awareness in the moment.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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