That doesn't follow. This isn't the whole of the practice.tiltbillings wrote:Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.
Pali Term: Sati
- Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
- tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
It does follow from the small bit that you said, and, of course, it is not the whole of the practice.polarbuddha101 wrote:That doesn't follow. This isn't the whole of the practice.tiltbillings wrote:Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Hey, you're not Dmytro!
polarbuddha101 wrote:Actually, it's just called a probe not a knife....danieLion wrote:In MN 105 the Buddha "defines" mindfulness/sati as a probing knife with no mention of it's recollective function.
What say you to this, Dmytro?
There's no mention of remembering. Where did you get that from? In fact, the text makes it clear that the probing is for current craving, not remembered craving.polarbuddha101 wrote:In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison. Of course, I suppose in this case sati may also be covering not just remembrance but also sampajanna whereas in more detailed descriptions the Buddha separates the two.
Re: Pali Term: Sati
This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.polarbuddha101 wrote:That doesn't follow. This isn't the whole of the practice.tiltbillings wrote:Which would keep one's practice solely in the realm of conceptual thinking.polarbuddha101 wrote: In this case, sati would be remembering to see craving as an arrow, ignorance as a poison and then remembering to use discernment and the dhamma to remove the arrow and the poison.
- Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
Right, but you have to remember that what you're trying to do is look for current craving. If you forget that you're probing for craving then you'll stop probing for it. In other words, you have to keep in mind that you're trying to look for and then abandon craving and follow the eightfold path.danieLion wrote: There's no mention of remembering. Where did you get that from? In fact, the text makes it clear that the probing is for current craving, not remembered craving.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
- Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
Yeah, and sati isn't just about remembering to see craving as an arrow, it's also remembering to follow the eightfold path and remembering to keep the breath in mind or remembering to stay focused on any of the other satipatthanas and remembering to put forth right effort in doing so.danieLion wrote: This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
- tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the texts, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.polarbuddha101 wrote:Yeah, and sati isn't just about remembering to see craving as an arrow, it's also remembering to follow the eightfold path and remembering to keep the breath in mind or remembering to stay focused on any of the other satipatthanas and remembering to put forth right effort in doing so.danieLion wrote: This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts? Basically, what are the factors of sati as found in the suttas according to you? Because I think that what you consider to be sati I consider to be sati and sampajanna and that this may in fact be the only difference but I could be wrong so please elaborate if you would.tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.polarbuddha101 wrote:Yeah, and sati isn't just about remembering to see craving as an arrow, it's also remembering to follow the eightfold path and remembering to keep the breath in mind or remembering to stay focused on any of the other satipatthanas and remembering to put forth right effort in doing so.danieLion wrote: This topic is not about the whole of the practice. It's about sati.
Re: Pali Term: Sati
No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....polarbuddha101 wrote:Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
No. While Dmytro is to be commended for his efforts here, what is obvious in the responses counter to his position is that sati, all by itself, is a richly nuanced word and "remembrance" by itself, without significant qualifications or allowances of its nuances, does not cover it for sati. If you read through this thread, which is not too long that it cannot be easily done, you can see that, especially, ironically enough, with some of the references Dmytro quotes, such as Gethin and Jakes, and such quotes as: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p205438polarbuddha101 wrote:Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
And a few more point raised above:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p205548
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&start=40
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p205875
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p214404
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p215840
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p225716
Much of what you are asking here, as the links show, has already been dealt with in this thread.Basically, what are the factors of sati as found in the suttas according to you? Because I think that what you consider to be sati I consider to be sati and sampajanna and that this may in fact be the only difference but I could be wrong so please elaborate if you would.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
I'm not ignoring those things, those are the things that one has to remember to be aware of, and to do so correctly.danieLion wrote:No way. You'd have to ignore satipatthana, anapanasati, sammasati, etc....polarbuddha101 wrote:Would you agree that remembrance combined with clear awareness covers the whole meaning of sati as found in the texts?tiltbillings wrote:But, alas, "remembering" just does not really adequately cover the whole of sati as it is actually used in the text, unless one is willing to start to broaden the meaning of "remembering" to give it the qualities of sati as found in the suttas.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
- Polar Bear
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
I don't think you're fully appreciating how greatly deluded we are because we forget to stay fully aware of what's actually going on in the present moment.danieLion wrote:Exactly. What pb101's saying about sati could be said about most behaviors. Memory is a given. So if the Buddha wanted it to JUST mean memory or some synoym of memory I think he would have made it pliain that's what he was talking about. There's not much Nobility to merely not forgetting. It's not very profound to say not forgetting is important to The Path. Like...duhh!!! Thanks Captain Obvious. See what I mean?
"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Re: Pali Term: Sati
Thank you for the great links, Polarbuddhapolarbuddha101 wrote:http://www.dharmasalon.net/Writings/Min ... wisdom.pdf"He is mindful, able to remember & recollect what was done & said a long time ago.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/BMIMC% ... ulness.MP3
Remembrance really is a good translation for sati. In meditation, sati is remembering to stay aware/alert (sampajanna) of an aspect of experience in the present, e.g. remembering to stay aware of breathing as it is occurring in your experience.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... endas.html
- tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Term: Sati
I had missed this. Dmytro's comment on it caught my attention. In reading through Kearney's fine discussion, it is nice to see that it makes my point of how very nuanced sati is as it is used in the suttas. "Remembrance" would not be the first word I would choose to translate sati. Mindfulness works fairly well, and it helps to have a careful discussion such as Kearny's in mind when using it.polarbuddha101 wrote:
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Writings/Min ... wisdom.pdf
Remembrance really is a good translation for sati. In meditation, sati is remembering to stay aware/alert (sampajanna) of an aspect of experience in the present, e.g. remembering to stay aware of breathing as it is occurring in your experience
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723