The Buddha spoke Pāli

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
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Ceisiwr
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The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings everyone,

I’ve just bought Richard Gombrich’s “Buddhism and Pali” where he argues that the Buddha spoke Pali. Has anyone else read this book? Any thoughts on it and it’s claims? Did the Blessed One speak Pali?

Metta

:)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Nicolas
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by Nicolas »

Some related Dhamma Wheel topics:
- What language did the Buddha speak?
- Did the Buddha Know Pali?
- Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?
- The Buddha spoke pali by Stefan Karpik
- Pali and Sanskrit: some history

It seems that the majority opinion among scholars is that the Buddha spoke a language close to Pali.
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Sam Vara
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by Sam Vara »

I've read it, and thought it was good. I like nearly everything Gombrich has done, and the effect that reading his work has on my mind.

As to whether he is right about what the Buddha spoke, I'm nowhere near competent enough to question his impressive level of scholarship and intellect. I think Gombrich himself - as a lifelong Popperian - would be happy for me to say that I provisionally accept his claim as a working hypothesis....
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

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cappuccino
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by cappuccino »

Pali is the language of the common people


Sanskrit is higher…
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri May 29, 2020 1:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
polaris
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by polaris »

Nicolas wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:46 pm Some related Dhamma Wheel topics:
- What language did the Buddha speak?
- Did the Buddha Know Pali?
- Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?
- The Buddha spoke pali by Stefan Karpik
- Pali and Sanskrit: some history

It seems that the majority opinion among scholars is that the Buddha spoke a language close to Pali.
I read somewhere that Buddha taught in a dialect widely spoken in that part of India during his time. He chose the dialect called Madhaga(spelling?) because it was the widely spoken dialect at that time so people could understand his teaching.
Pali was also used by Buddha. I also read that "Pali" was an artificial language. By artificial the author said that Pali was invented so that many of the Buddhist terms could be named and made known. It wasn't a nature language like other languages which were spoken by large number of people and families. Pali was also said to be a written language to record the teaching of Buddha and later it evolved into a spoken language. It sounds like an ancient successful attempt at 'Esperanto' to me.
Of course what I wrote could be all wrong because it's all hearsay. Anyone read anything interesting regarding this matter? Would love to hear it. Metta
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 12:13 am Pali is the language of the common people


Sanskrit is higher…
Ok brahman.

:roll:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
sentinel
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by sentinel »

Buddha was a warrior n raja descendent , He learned the vedas in sanskrit (an elite language) . Pali is not a name of language until 6th CE , but Pali is a mixture of middle , western and eastern local dialects , where Pali is close to western (Avanti) dialect . The inscriptions on Asokan pillars wasnt exactly the Pali but with some variations and resemble the mixture of local dialects . However Buddha was from eastern region and never been to western region in His lifetimes . But of course Buddha can speak or able to converse in many dialects , when His audience is Brahmins , He possibly spoken in Chhanda a vedic sanskrit , and to local magadhan could be conversing in magadhi prakrit .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

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sentinel wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 6:56 am Buddha was a warrior n raja descendent , He learned the vedas in sanskrit (an elite language) . Pali is not a name of language until 6th CE , but Pali is a mixture of middle , western and eastern local dialects , where Pali is close to western (Avanti) dialect . The inscriptions on Asokan pillars wasnt exactly the Pali but with some variations and resemble the mixture of local dialects . However Buddha was from eastern region and never been to western region in His lifetimes . But of course Buddha can speak or able to converse in many dialects , when His audience is Brahmins , He possibly spoken in Chhanda a vedic sanskrit , and to local magadhan could be conversing in magadhi prakrit .
Buddha grew up in a non-Vedic land. I doubt he would have learnt the Vedas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sentinel
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by sentinel »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 8:25 am Buddha grew up in a non-Vedic land. I doubt he would have learnt the Vedas.
DN13

13.‘Well then, Vaseṭṭha, what about the early sages of those Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas, the makers of the mantras, the expounders of the mantras, whose ancient verses are chanted, pronounced and collected by the Brahmins of today, and sung and spoken about — such as Atthaka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāsettha, Kassapa, Bhagu - did they ever say: “We know and see when, how and where Brahmā appears”?’ ‘No, Reverend Gotama.’

14.‘So, Vāseṭṭha, not one of these Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas has seen Brahmā face to face, nor has one of their teachers, or teacher’s teachers, nor even the ancestor seven generations back of one of their teachers. Nor could any of the early sages say: “We know and see when, how and where Brahmā appears.” So what these Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas are saying is: “We teach this path to union with Brahmā that we do not know or see, this is the only straight path...leading to union with Brahmā.” What do you think, Vāseṭṭha? Such being the case, does not what these Brahmins declare turn out to be ill-founded?’ ‘Yes indeed, Reverend Gotama.’

--DN 13
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by Ceisiwr »

sentinel wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 8:34 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 8:25 am Buddha grew up in a non-Vedic land. I doubt he would have learnt the Vedas.
DN13

13.‘Well then, Vaseṭṭha, what about the early sages of those Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas, the makers of the mantras, the expounders of the mantras, whose ancient verses are chanted, pronounced and collected by the Brahmins of today, and sung and spoken about — such as Atthaka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāsettha, Kassapa, Bhagu - did they ever say: “We know and see when, how and where Brahmā appears”?’ ‘No, Reverend Gotama.’

14.‘So, Vāseṭṭha, not one of these Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas has seen Brahmā face to face, nor has one of their teachers, or teacher’s teachers, nor even the ancestor seven generations back of one of their teachers. Nor could any of the early sages say: “We know and see when, how and where Brahmā appears.” So what these Brahmins learned in the Three Vedas are saying is: “We teach this path to union with Brahmā that we do not know or see, this is the only straight path...leading to union with Brahmā.” What do you think, Vāseṭṭha? Such being the case, does not what these Brahmins declare turn out to be ill-founded?’ ‘Yes indeed, Reverend Gotama.’

--DN 13
That doesn’t show that he was raised in a Vedic culture. The Sakyans along with Magadha were classed as foreign lands by the Vedic texts. Whilst some Brahmins did live there Greater Magadha was a distinct culture which the Vedic culture looked down upon, despite absorbing some of their ideas into the Upanishads such as kamma and rebirth. Have a read of “Greater Magadha” by Johannes Bronkhorst. He points out how the Buddha was very likely not raised in a Vedic society and could possibly have had little knowledge of the Vedas outside of what was common knowledge at the time. He also argues he might not have even been aware of the Upanishads at all.

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... khorst.pdf
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 12:13 am Pali is the language of the common people


Sanskrit is higher…
Makes this claim.

Likes the Upanishads.

Believes in a True self.

How are you not an Advaita Vedantin?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sentinel
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by sentinel »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 8:39 am
That doesn’t show that he was raised in a Vedic culture. The Sakyans along with Magadha were classed as foreign lands by the Vedic texts. Whilst some Brahmins did live there Greater Magadha was a distinct culture which the Vedic culture looked down upon, despite absorbing some of their ideas into the Upanishads such as kamma and rebirth. Have a read of “Greater Magadha” by Johannes Bronkhorst. He points out how the Buddha was very likely not raised in a Vedic society and could possibly have had little knowledge of the Vedas outside of what was common knowledge at the time. He also argues he might not have even been aware of the Upanishads at all.

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... khorst.pdf
Actually , if you never studies the dhamma , would you able to refute the teachings ?
Similarly , if Buddha never studied vedas , learned all type of knowledges and trainings meditations under the adept ascetics and eventually on His own came to enlightenment , there is No Way for Him to refute something you totally dont know !
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by Ceisiwr »

sentinel wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:31 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 8:39 am
That doesn’t show that he was raised in a Vedic culture. The Sakyans along with Magadha were classed as foreign lands by the Vedic texts. Whilst some Brahmins did live there Greater Magadha was a distinct culture which the Vedic culture looked down upon, despite absorbing some of their ideas into the Upanishads such as kamma and rebirth. Have a read of “Greater Magadha” by Johannes Bronkhorst. He points out how the Buddha was very likely not raised in a Vedic society and could possibly have had little knowledge of the Vedas outside of what was common knowledge at the time. He also argues he might not have even been aware of the Upanishads at all.

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... khorst.pdf
Actually , if you never studies the dhamma , would you able to refute the teachings ?
Similarly , if Buddha never studied vedas , learned all type of knowledges and trainings meditations under the adept ascetics and eventually on His own came to enlightenment , there is No Way for Him to refute something you totally dont know !
You don’t have to have fully studied the Vedic texts to dismiss Vedic and Brahmin claims.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sentinel
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Re: The Buddha spoke Pāli

Post by sentinel »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 9:36 am You don’t have to have fully studied the Vedic texts to dismiss Vedic and Brahmin claims.
Really ? All those learned brahmins in three vedas does not seems can easily accept someone if one is not more erudite than them . Where does the notion of "atta" came from ? Eg . Can you refute the theory of quantum physics if you dont know the subject ?
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