evarupam, etc.

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Sam Vara
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evarupam, etc.

Post by Sam Vara »

Please forgive a beginner's stupid question.

I'm reading through the Sevitabbāsevitabba Sutta (MN 114) and find the terms yathārupam, kathamrupam, evarupam, etc.

https://suttacentral.net/mn114/en/sujato

Is the rupa part the same term as is used for "form" or "matter" in English? Sujato translates as "such kind", that kind", etc., and Bhikkhu Bodhi as simply "such", "what", "this".

Is this a common construction in Pali? Where else do we find it? Is it OK to translate it literally as "such form as..." "what form of..", "this form of", or is this likely to play me into difficulties later?

thanks!
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SDC
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Re: evarupam, etc.

Post by SDC »

Preface: my Pali is still a work in progress.
MN 114 wrote:Kāyasamācārampāhaṃ,
bhikkhave, duvidhena vadāmi— sevitabbampi, asevitabbampi; tañca aññamaññaṃ kāyasamācāran’ti— iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ bhagavatā. Kiñcetaṃ paṭicca vuttaṃ? Yathārūpaṃ, bhante, kāyasamācāraṃ sevato akusalā dhammā abhivaḍḍhanti, kusalā dhammā parihāyanti, evarūpo kāyasamācāro na sevitabbo; yathārūpañca kho, bhante, kāyasamācāraṃ sevato akusalā dhammā parihāyanti, kusalā dhammā abhivaḍḍhanti, evarūpo kāyasamācāro sevitabbo.
I'm interested in the compound kāyasamācāro, which is defined on SuttaCentral as "good conduct." However, the Pali for "body" is kāyo (not rūpa, which is not there in the first sentence anyway). Yet we see "bodily" in the translation and samācāro is "conduct". Seems as though kāyasamācāro is "bodily conduct". Perhaps just a mix up in their dictionary?

For yathārūpaṃ it seems it could be "In relation to this matter..." perhaps making sure to emphasize that what follows is "matter" (again we see that kāyasamācāro follows). For evarūpa, which is said to be used to refer to something previously mentioned, I would imagine makes sure that it is in reference to that same matter, the body.

Some food for thought:
SN 12.2 wrote:Cattāro ca mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṃ upādāyarūpaṃ. Idaṃ vuccati rūpaṃ.

The four great elements and the matter derived from the four great elements: this is called matter.
It does not appear that "sometimes" rūpa means "body". Seems to mean that the body (kāyo) is matter and matter is what is described in the above sutta. It is of the four great elements.

I truly hope one of seasoned experts shows up. My post is merely meant as an icebreaker.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: evarupam, etc.

Post by Volo »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:51 am Is this a common construction in Pali? Where else do we find it?
Yes, it's common, see Warder, p. 189:
Comparison (simile) may be expressed in a bahubbīhi by its ending with a word meaning "type”, "kind”, "form”— several of which may be used as synonyms for " like ”. The commonest of these is -rūpa, "form” (cf. the compounds with indeclinables above). E.g.- vālavedhirūpa (samanabrdhmana), “ like a shooter (vedhin) of wild beasts (valo) (i.e. his opponents in debate).
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Re: evarupam, etc.

Post by Sam Vara »

Volo wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:32 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:51 am Is this a common construction in Pali? Where else do we find it?
Yes, it's common, see Warder, p. 189:
Comparison (simile) may be expressed in a bahubbīhi by its ending with a word meaning "type”, "kind”, "form”— several of which may be used as synonyms for " like ”. The commonest of these is -rūpa, "form” (cf. the compounds with indeclinables above). E.g.- vālavedhirūpa (samanabrdhmana), “ like a shooter (vedhin) of wild beasts (valo) (i.e. his opponents in debate).
Many thanks, Volo, that's much appreciated. :anjali:
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