what is the difference in meaning between...

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Wizard in the Forest
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what is the difference in meaning between...

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

I feel like a fool for asking, but what are the nuanced differences between

diṭṭhe, diṭṭho, diṭṭhi, diṭṭhaṃ, diṭṭhato

sute, suto, suta, sutaṃ, sutato

mute, muto, muta, mutaṃ mutato

viññāte, Viññāta, Viññātaṃ Viññātato

and I don't just mean grammatically (but that is also helpful) but in view of translation how would these differences be best represented?

If you can, please give me examples so I can understand how they work better too.
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DooDoot
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Re: what is the difference in meaning between...

Post by DooDoot »

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:53 am
I feel like a fool for asking, but what are the nuanced differences between
Wise questions. :smile:
Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 3:53 am
diṭṭhe, diṭṭho, diṭṭhi, diṭṭhaṃ, diṭṭhato

sute, suto, suta, sutaṃ, sutato

mute, muto, muta, mutaṃ mutato

viññāte, Viññāta, Viññātaṃ Viññātato
Where did you obtain these words from? Thanks
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Re: what is the difference in meaning between...

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

MN 1 Mulapariyaya Sutta

And Ud 1.10 Bahiya of the Bark Cloth

And SN 35.95 Maluṅkyaputta Sutta

I kind of get what they mean but when I tried to make vocab cards for them I was at a loss for differentiating them
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Re: what is the difference in meaning between...

Post by DooDoot »

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:35 am
I kind of get what they mean but when I tried to make vocab cards for them I was at a loss for differentiating them
I am merely a newbie and often wrong but it is a good exercise for me.
diṭṭhe, diṭṭho, diṭṭhi, diṭṭhaṃ, diṭṭhato
My 1st glance at the above and the words appear possibly not necessarily the same.
diṭṭhi
feminine
dogma; theory; belief.
diṭṭha
pp. of passati
seen; found; understood. (nt.), vision.
diṭṭho = looks like singular nominative case of diṭṭha, i.e., the "subject" of the sentence. However, i am struggling to explain it :mrgreen: example below:
I’ve seen the Blessed One myself,
So ca me bhagavā diṭṭho,
:alien:
Diṭṭhaṃ diṭṭhato sañjānāti
They perceive the seen as the seen.
Lit: the seen as 'the seen' is perceived

diṭṭhaṃ maññati,
they identify as/with the seen,

diṭṭhato meti maññati
they identify that ‘the seen is mine’

diṭṭhasmiṃ maññati
they identify regarding (in) the seen

diṭṭhaṃ abhinandati.
they take pleasure in [with] the seen.

MN 1
In MN 1 above, the root word appears to be 'diṭṭha' ('the seen').

Diṭṭhaṃ is the accusative case, that is, diṭṭhaṃ is the object of the verbs sañjānāti, maññati & abhinandati, that is:
(i) perceive (verb) the seen (the object).
(ii) identify with (verb) the seen (the object)
(iii) take pleasure in/with (verb) the seen (the object)

Diṭṭhato - i am not sure but the suffix 'ato' is what distinguishes the word; probably into some type of adverb or title, i.e, what 'the seen' is called or how the the seen is described; thus the seen is perceived as 'the seen'.

Diṭṭhasmiṃ - is locative case - namely - he conceives himself in/within the seen (Bodhi). For example: "I live in my house" is identifying in the seen. The house is the 'location' of the action of identifying.

Therefore, my translation is:

Diṭṭhaṃ diṭṭhato sañjānāti
The seen as 'the seen' is perceived

diṭṭhaṃ maññati,
the seen is misconstrued

diṭṭhato meti maññati
'the seen is/as mine' is misconstrued

diṭṭhasmiṃ maññati
existing in/within/as part of the seen is misconstrued

diṭṭhaṃ abhinandati.
the seen is delighted in
In that case, when it comes to things that are to be seen, heard, thought, and known: in the seen will be merely the seen; in the heard will be merely the heard; in the thought will be merely the thought; in the known will be merely the known.

“Ettha ca te, mālukyaputta, diṭṭhasutamutaviññātabbesu dhammesu diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṃ bhavissati, mute mutamattaṃ bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattaṃ bhavissati.

Then Māluṅkyaputta, living alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute, soon realized the supreme end of the spiritual path in this very life. He lived having achieved with his own insight the goal for which gentlemen rightly go forth from the lay life to homelessness.

Atha kho āyasmā mālukyaputto eko vūpakaṭṭho appamatto ātāpī pahitatto viharanto nacirasseva—yassatthāya kulaputtā sammadeva agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajanti, tadanuttaraṃ—brahmacariyapariyosānaṃ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja vihāsi.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.95/en/sujato
1. the 1st diṭṭha is part of the compound diṭṭhasutamutaviññātabbesu and is governed by the declension of the compound, namely, "esu", this appears to be "locative", that is, "in the seen"

1a. "dhammesu" ("things") is also "locative". Therefore, in things seen, heard, thought & cognised: diṭṭhasutamutaviññātabbesu dhammesu

2. diṭṭhe = can be singular nominative or locative per the tables; must be locative, that is, "in the seen"; however i think it is "nominative" :mrgreen: . I would translate the verse as: "in things that are seen, heard, thought, and known, the seen will be merely the seen".

3. diṭṭhamattaṃ = is governed by "mattaṃ" ("measured as"; "merely as") :shrug: . bhavissati = will be :shrug: .

4. Therefore, to conclude: ""diṭṭha...esu dhammesu diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati" = "in things seen (locative) the seen (nominative) only merely the seen (accusative) will be".

5. diṭṭheva = diṭṭha + eva = :shrug: possibly "visible/seen here & now"

:reading:

To conclude:

diṭṭhi is unrelated to the suttas

diṭṭha is the root word in the suttas

diṭṭhe is singular nominative of diṭṭha, i.e. diṭṭha is the subject or thing itself

diṭṭho is singular nominative of diṭṭha, i.e. diṭṭha is the subject or thing itself

diṭṭhaṃ is the accusative of diṭṭha, that is, diṭṭha as an object subjected to the actions of a verb

diṭṭhato is some type of adverb or title of diṭṭha

diṭṭhasmiṃ is the locative singular of diṭṭha, i.e, diṭṭha as a location

diṭṭhesu is the locative plural of diṭṭha, i.e, diṭṭha as locations

OK. i tried my best :mrgreen:
Volo wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:36 am
...
How did i go, sir? :mrgreen:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: what is the difference in meaning between...

Post by Volo »

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:45 am
How did i go, sir?
I think most is correct, but I'm really puzzled with diṭṭhato. Here is VBB's translation:
1) Diṭṭhaṃ diṭṭhato sañjānāti; 2) diṭṭhaṃ diṭṭhato saññatvā 3) diṭṭhaṃ maññati, 4) diṭṭhasmiṃ maññati, 5) diṭṭhato maññati, 6) diṭṭhaṃ meti maññati, 7) diṭṭhaṃ abhinandati.

1) He perceives the seen as the seen. 2) Having perceived the seen as the seen, 3) he conceives [himself as] the seen, 4) he conceives [himself] in the seen, 5) he conceives [himself apart] from the seen, 6) he conceives the seen to be ‘mine,’ 7) he delights in the seen.
diṭṭhato seems to be abl. But, in the blue part VBB translates diṭṭhato as nominative (or acc?) "the seen", but in the red part as abl ("from seen"). The other translators take it as nom/acc or abl.

I couldn't find an explanation. I hope Ven Dhammanando can clarify it.
1a. "dhammesu" ("things") is also "locative". Therefore, in things seen, heard, thought & cognised: diṭṭhasutamutaviññātabbesu dhammesu

2. diṭṭhe = can be singular nominative or locative per the tables; must be locative, that is, "in the seen"; however i think it is "nominative" :mrgreen: . I would translate the verse as: "in things that are seen, heard, thought, and known, the seen will be merely the seen".
Here I disagree. 1a is indeed loc, with meaning "with reference to" (loc can have such meaning). 2. diṭṭhe I would also take as loc, and not as a rare Magadhism Nom Sg in -e.

Added: I just recollected, Ven Dhammanando already answered a similar question:
Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:09 pm
Volo wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:54 pm
But I'm a bit puzzled with dukkhato which seems to be abl. I don't understand why there is abl, unless it's an idiomatic expression. I hope Ven Dhammanando could explain.
The ending -to can indicate either (1) an ablative of separation, as in: dukkhato mutto, "freed from suffering," or, (2) an instrumental adverb in the sense of "by way of its being..." or "with regard to its being..."

Cakkhuṃ aniccato passati, "He sees the eye with regard to its being impermanent." But since this sounds a bit unwieldy, most translators will render it in more natural English: "He sees the eye as impermanent."

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