comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

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comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by frank k » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:00 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ions.html
(won't quote cut and paste to here because the hyperlinks won't show up legibly for this forum software)
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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:04 am

This worship of vitakka & vicara is getting out of hand :roll: . Vitakka & vicara are not actually anything practised and they are ultimately impurities in jhana; which is why they are discarded in the 2nd jhana. While the Visiddhimagga appears to teach vitakka & vicara are a type of practice (of suppression), not all Buddhist practitioners agree with this. The Buddha himself taught in SN 48.10 and MN 118 that concentration & jhana are developed by making "letting go"; "surrender"; "relaxation" ("vossagga") the object. Vitakka & vicara, in respect to concentration, is merely consciousness moving towards & tracking the meditation object. Vitakka & vicara in the 1st jhana merely indicate the mind (citta) is not perfectly (100%) still & unified. Vitakka & vicara are ultimately things to be abandoned while 'sati', 'sampajano' & 'upekkha' are never abandoned.
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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:46 am

Sati in isolation (without sampajāno) occasionally just means the pre-buddhist remembering faculty SN 48.9.
It seems sati must always have an object of recollection. Therefore, in Buddhism, it is unlikely sati can ever occur without sampajāno (or right view).
Sati with Sampajāno is an explicit declaration that the specialized Buddhist meaning of 4sp🐘 is intended.
Again, it is unlikely sati-sampajano operates exclusively in Satipatthana. For example:
One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view (sampajano), right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech

MN 117
 :alien:
sampajāno = lucid-discerning
in verb form: pajānāti (he discerns).
Sampajāno = prelearned or preexisting knowledge. Sampajāno = lucid-understanding.
Sampajāno is what Dhamma-vicaya 2💭🕵️ (Dharma investigation) does in the 7sb☀️ awakening factors.
No. Sampajāno is related to satisambojjhaṅgo, per the definitions, as follows:
MN 118 wrote:“And how, bhikkhus, do the four foundations of mindfulness, developed and cultivated, fulfil the seven enlightenment factors?

Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware (sampajano) and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world—on that occasion unremitting mindfulness is established in him. On whatever occasion unremitting mindfulness is established in a bhikkhu—on that occasion the mindfulness enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development, it comes to fulfilment in him.

Abiding thus mindful, he investigates and examines that state with wisdom and embarks upon a full inquiry into it. On whatever occasion, abiding thus mindful, a bhikkhu investigates and examines that state with wisdom and embarks upon a full inquiry into it—on that occasion the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development it comes to fulfilment in him..........

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi
Dhammavicayasambojjhaṅgo is more related to direct seeing (rather than applying past prelearned preexisting understanding).
Sampajāno is equivalent and/or closely associated with pañña/discernment 5👁,
Sampajāno is of the pañña faculty but sampajāno is not related to direct knowledge or vipassana. Sampajāno is past knowledge or understanding, used to supervise & quality control concentration & experience. Sampajāno is not directly seeing or here-&-now insight.

The sequence of cause & effect is: sati > sampajano > samadhi > nana/vipassana :ugeek:
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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by Volo » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:39 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:04 am
While the Visiddhimagga appears to teach vitakka & vicara are a type of practice (of suppression),
Could you elaborate, what do you mean by that?

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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:18 am

Volo wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:39 am
Could you elaborate, what do you mean by that?
I read & posted from the Vism. recently for the 1st time, here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=36302 This was the impression I gained; although I could be wrong (given the below is a translation):
Herein, applied thinking (vitakkana) is applied thought (vitakka); hitting upon, is what is meant. It has the characteristic of directing the mind on to an object (mounting the mind on its object). Its function is to strike at and thresh—for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought. It is manifested as the leading of the mind onto an object. Sustained thinking (vicaraóa) is sustained thought (vicára); continued sustainment (anusañcarana), is what is meant. It has the characteristic of continued pressure on (occupation with) the object. Its function is to keep conascent [mental] states [occupied] with that. It is manifested as keeping consciousness anchored [on that object].

90. In the commentary to the Book of Twos this is said: “Applied thought occurs as a state of directing the mind onto an object, like the movement of a large bird taking off into the air by engaging the air with both wings and forcing them downwards. For it causes absorption by being unified. Sustained thought occurs with the individual essence of continued pressure, like the bird’s movement when it is using (activating) its wings for the purpose of keeping hold on the air. For it keeps pressing the object”. That fits in with the latter’s occurrence as anchoring. This difference of theirs becomes evident in the first and second jhánas [in the fivefold reckoning].
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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by sentinel » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:58 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:46 am

One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view (sampajano)[/color], right effort & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech


Can you refer me text that says sampanjano is right view ?
Mr no.2

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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by Volo » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:45 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:18 am
I read & posted from the Vism. recently for the 1st time, here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=36302 This was the impression I gained; although I could be wrong (given the below is a translation):
Herein, applied thinking (vitakkana) is applied thought (vitakka); hitting upon, is what is meant. It has the characteristic of directing the mind on to an object (mounting the mind on its object). Its function is to strike at and thresh—for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought. It is manifested as the leading of the mind onto an object. Sustained thinking (vicaraóa) is sustained thought (vicára); continued sustainment (anusañcarana), is what is meant. It has the characteristic of continued pressure on (occupation with) the object. Its function is to keep conascent [mental] states [occupied] with that. It is manifested as keeping consciousness anchored [on that object].

90. In the commentary to the Book of Twos this is said: “Applied thought occurs as a state of directing the mind onto an object, like the movement of a large bird taking off into the air by engaging the air with both wings and forcing them downwards. For it causes absorption by being unified. Sustained thought occurs with the individual essence of continued pressure, like the bird’s movement when it is using (activating) its wings for the purpose of keeping hold on the air. For it keeps pressing the object”. That fits in with the latter’s occurrence as anchoring. This difference of theirs becomes evident in the first and second jhánas [in the fivefold reckoning].
I understand the words you highlighted as a description of the function of vitakka and vicara as jhāna factors, not that meditator should actively put some kind of mental pressure on the object. There is no jhāna without letting go, but trying to actively "do" letting go will probably work as badly as putting pressure on the object in attempt to "do" vitakka. But when a meditator identifies jhāna factors (after emerging from jhāna) it is important to know their characteristics.

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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by Assaji » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:26 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:04 am
The Buddha himself taught in SN 48.10 and MN 118 that concentration & jhana are developed by making "letting go"; "surrender"; "relaxation" ("vossagga") the object.
That's not true, "vossagga" in SN 48.10 has a very different meaning from "relaxation".
One makes "vossagga" the basis (ārammaṇa) of meditative composure.

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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by frank k » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:17 pm

Assaji wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:26 pm
...
That's not true, "vossagga" in SN 48.10 has a very different meaning from "relaxation".
One makes "vossagga" the basis (ārammaṇa) of meditative composure.
Hi Assaji, could you expand in detail exactly how you understand that to mean? B. Bodhi's and Thanissaro's translation of that are somewhat ambiguous.

Two general categories of interpretation:
1) one uses vossagga as a means to attain samadhi
2) one attains samadhi, for the purpose attaining vossagga.

I take it to mean, (SN 48.9 samadhi indriya def. of "vossaggarammam karitva"),
the 2nd meaning. That one is attaining samadhi, for the sole purpose of attaining vossagga, here being a synonym of nirvana.
In the standard 7sb formula,
viveka nissitam, viraga nissitgam, nirodha nissitam, vossaga parinamim.

Vossaga, synonym for nirvana in that 7sb refrain.
Whenever you see the pattern viraga, nirodha, <x>, in the suttas, you can practically guarantee the next word in the series is referring to nirvana.
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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:12 pm

Assaji wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:26 pm
That's not true, "vossagga" in SN 48.10 has a very different meaning from "relaxation".
Hi. It means "relaxation" or releasing/opening the mind/brain. Its called "letting go" or "surrender". It is a subtle mental art gifted to the stream-winner at stage 12 of anapanasati.
frank k wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:17 pm
2) one attains samadhi, for the purpose attaining vossagga.
No. Vossagga attains samadhi for the purpose of paṭinissaggā.
frank k wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:17 pm
vossagga, here being a synonym of nirvana.
In the standard 7sb formula,
viveka nissitam, viraga nissitgam, nirodha nissitam, vossaga parinamim.

Vossaga, synonym for nirvana in that 7sb refrain.
No. Paṭinissaggā synonym for nirvana. 7sb refrain says the 7sb rely on (nissitam) viveka, viraga, nirodha maturing as vossaga. This said, most 'scholars' wrongly say 'vossagga' & 'paṭinissaggā ' are synonyms. A contextual study of the suttas will show the scholars are wrong about this. Anyway, if you don't understand 'vossagga', then Ajahn Buddhadasa (or Ajahn Chah or Brahmavamso) is to be quoted:
As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.

Buddhadasa
Ajahn Brahm has made 'vossagga' in SN 48.9 (& 10) the basis of his basic instruction.
Volo wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:45 pm
trying to actively "do" letting go will probably work as badly...
I say not for the bona fide stream-winner. Step 12 of Anapanasati (neighbor concentration) when reached naturally provides the sublime art of letting go to the stream-winner. Prior to that, the stream-enterer mostly relies on stillness, non-judgment, non-craving & not-grasping/attachment.
Volo wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:45 pm
But when a meditator identifies jhāna factors (after emerging from jhāna) it is important to know their characteristics.
A common notion which does not resonate with me. In jhana, I imagine the mind clearly knows the factors, without any doubt whatsoever. Possibly the vitakka & vicara are not clearly understood until entering the 2nd jhana. Are there any suttas to support the above theory of "emerging"? Thanks

Kind regards :)
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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by Volo » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:14 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:12 pm
Are there any suttas to support the above theory of "emerging"?
It's not even important for the current discussion whether he knows factors after or during the jhāna. The point is that he should be introduced to their characteristics, therefore Vism is describing them in detail.

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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by Assaji » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:45 pm

Hi Frank,
frank k wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:17 pm
Hi Assaji, could you expand in detail exactly how you understand that to mean? B. Bodhi's and Thanissaro's translation of that are somewhat ambiguous.

Two general categories of interpretation:
1) one uses vossagga as a means to attain samadhi
2) one attains samadhi, for the purpose attaining vossagga.

I take it to mean, (SN 48.9 samadhi indriya def. of "vossaggarammam karitva"),
the 2nd meaning. That one is attaining samadhi, for the sole purpose of attaining vossagga, here being a synonym of nirvana.
In the standard 7sb formula,
viveka nissitam, viraga nissitgam, nirodha nissitam, vossaga parinamim.

Vossaga, synonym for nirvana in that 7sb refrain.
Whenever you see the pattern viraga, nirodha, <x>, in the suttas, you can practically guarantee the next word in the series is referring to nirvana.
Venerable Bodhi also writes about Nibbāna:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MEA6A ... &pg=PA1930

and I agree with him.

In my opinion, the meaning is "having made Nibbāna the basis (ārammaṇa)."

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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:21 am

Assaji wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:45 pm
In my opinion, the meaning is "having made Nibbāna the basis (ārammaṇa)."
Sure. I agree with this also (although a nibbana with a small "n"). Stream-enterer nibbana. :smile:
Volo wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:14 am
The point is that he should be introduced to their characteristics, therefore Vism is describing them in detail.
Maybe. But there appear to be three views on what V & V are:

1. View of FrankK & SarathW that vitakka & vicara in 1st jhana refer to three wholesome thoughts

2. View of Visuddhimagga :?: that vitakka & vicara in 1st jhana are related to maintaining concentration & establishing ekaggata

3. View of Ajahn Brahm that vitakka & vicara are imperfections of concentration where the mind is still subtly & unnecessarily moving towards & pondering the other jhana factors (which actually weakens the jhana's bliss).

Regards :smile:
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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by frank k » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:32 pm

Assaji wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:45 pm
...
Venerable Bodhi also writes about Nibbāna:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MEA6A ... &pg=PA1930

and I agree with him.

In my opinion, the meaning is "having made Nibbāna the basis (ārammaṇa)."
Do you agree with the Patis. interpretation then?
That it's insight preceding samatha?
So "having made nibbana the basis" means you're already a noble disciple, and then the samadhi indriya you exercise is that of of a noble one?

All 5 of the indriya actually explicitly state 'here, an ariya-savako (noble disciple) does....', but the expression ariya-savako itself is also ambiguous. It can mean a disciple that has attained at least stream entry, or it can mean, as B. Thanissaro usually translates, "disciple of a Noble one."

The big question still, in plain English, how do you actually understand the instructions should be carried out by the average practitioner for samadhi indriya?

I take the simplest interpretation, which is that one is striving to attain a quality of samadhi that is capable of realizing nirvana, because that's the only interpretation that makes sense to me. If one already had realized nirvana, they already had a samadhi that was capable of realizing nirvana, so what sense is it telling them to do it in that order? (first make nirvana as the basis, then afterwards go into samadhi)?

I guess it also makes sense to say one should be striving to attain a quality of samadhi that can be equal to a disciple who is already awakened who then enters into a samadhi that has nirvana as a basis, but that's a little convoluted and unnecessary isn't it?

To clarify vossagga (release), there is no controversy between EBT, commentaries and Abhidhamma period , correct? Everyone takes vossasgga/release to mean a synonym of nirvana correct? Ajahn Brahm is the only dissenter?
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Re: comprehensive definition of 'sati', 'sampajano', 'vitakka & vicara', 'upekkha'

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:14 am

frank k wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:32 pm
Everyone takes vossasgga/release to mean a synonym of nirvana correct?
Vossasgga cannot mean a synonym of Nirvana because the development of Nirvana does not occur before the development of jhana. The Buddha said vossagga is used to develop jhana.
frank k wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:32 pm
Ajahn Brahm is the only dissenter?
I doubt Ajahn Brahm has ever expressed his opinion on this matter of vossasgga vs paṭi­nissag­gā; particularly if "vossagga" is "Nirvana". He said about patinissagga:
The last of the reflections described in the Anapanasati Sutta is on the wonderful word patinissagga, “letting go, abandoning.” In this context patinissagga is giving away not what’s “out there” but what’s “in here.” Many times people regard Buddhism as being unworldly, giving away what’s out there. But patinissagga is the letting go of the inner world, the letting go of the doer and even the knower. If you look very carefully, you’ll see what has been happening in jhana is not only letting go of the external world but also letting go of the internal world, especially letting go of the doer, the will, the controller. This insight gives rise to so much happiness, so much purity, so much freedom, so much bliss. You’ve found the path to the end of suffering.

https://tricycle.org/magazine/stepping- ... ghtenment/
There are intelligent properly reasoned dissenters, such as here: Meanings of vossagga & paṭi­nissag­gā?
Dissenter wrote:‘Vossagga’ appears to be used in the development of meditation (eg. SN 48.10 developing concentration; MN 118 developing factors of enlightenment) or in the surrendering of social authority or privilege (eg. DN 31, to wife & to employee). The dictionaries provide meanings such as ‘giving up’, ‘relaxation’, ‘handing over’ or ‘surrender’.

‘Paṭi­nissag­gā’ appears to be used with the completion of the path, such as the 16th stage of anapanasati (MN 118), 3rd noble truth (SN 56.11) or description of Nibbana (AN 3.32; MN 1; MN 26; MN 112; SN 22.4).
That’s why the Realized One—with the ending, fading away, cessation, giving up and letting go of all cravings—has awakened to the supreme perfect Awakening, I say.

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘tathāgato sabbaso taṇhānaṃ khayā virāgā nirodhā cāgā paṭinissaggā anuttaraṃ sammāsambodhiṃ abhisambuddho’ti vadāmi.

MN 1
Even though the case above is well-reasoned, there are suttas where "paṭi­nissag­gā" does not refer to Nibbana, such as MN 8, MN 102, MN 74 & AN 10.94.

"Vossagga" may mean "give up". "Paṭi­nissag­gā" may mean "give back". :shrug:
vo˚
is commonly regarded as the prefix combination vi + ava˚; (i.e. vi + o˚), but in many cases it simply represents ava˚; (= o˚) with v as euphonic (“vorschlag”), as in vonata (= onata), voloketi, vokkanti, vokiṇṇa, voropeti vosāpeti, vosāna, vossagga.
II. Ava as prefix
Meaning
■ (Motion:) down, downward, away (down), off; e.g. avasūra sun-down; adv. avaṃ (q.v. opp. uddhaṃ)
paṭi
indeclinable
directional prefix in well-defined meaning of “back (to), against towards, in opposition to, opposite.”
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