Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

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manas
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Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by manas » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:57 pm

'Knowledge and vision of things as they really are' (or, is an alternate translation '...as they have come to be'? or is that something else?) is a term I'm seeing often in sutta readings.

I can find it difficult to look up Pali terms; I come across various meanings. I would appreciate someone who is experienced and knowledgeable in the Pali of the suttas (or better at using Pali dictionaries) to please break down the components of this important term. In the context of this term in particular (ie, yathābhūtañāṇadassanam), what do each of these mean, exactly:

1.Yathā
2.bhūta
3.ñāṇa
4.dassanam

Obviously, I have a rough idea; bhūta would be 'as they are / (have come to be?), ñāṇa would be knowledge, dassanam refers to vision, yes? (I'm not sure about yathā). Anyway, I would like a more exact & thorough breakdown & explanation of these, if anyone could kindly assist with that?

Also: how is this 'knowledge & vision' special? Is this what distinguishes the stream-winner, from the faith or dhamma-follower? Is this the moment one 'enters the Noble Eightfold Path' / attains right view?

Thank you for reading.
:anjali:
Seeking your own happiness,
you should pull out your own arrow:
your own lamentation, longing, & sorrow.

With arrow pulled out,
independent,
attaining peace of awareness,
all grief transcended,
griefless you are
unbound.


(excerpt, Sn 3:8)

Srilankaputra
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Re: Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:05 am

I also have a supplementary question. What is the pali root of the word 'bhūta'?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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mikenz66
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Re: Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:01 am

Perhaps the discussion here is helpful: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/th ... y-are/4909

Bhikku Sujato gives an interesting perspective:
One of the problems with it for me as a translator, though, is that it is found very commonly, and most English renderings have the unfortunate side-effect of over-stating it. What is a simple idiom becomes a philosophical statement.
His point is that it's about understanding causality, not about "reality".

:heart:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by SarathW » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:28 am

yathā-bhūta-ñāṇa-dassana: 'the knowledge and vision according to reality', is one of the 18 chief kinds of insight (vipassanā, q.v.).
The way I understand it means seeing things in accordance with Four Noble Truths or in terms of Anicca, Dukka, and Anatta.
Perhaps see the things as the Bahiya sutta.
This is a very common usage sentence used in Sinhalese. Basically, it means to accept the things as it comes.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Dhammanando
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Re: Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:18 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:05 am
I also have a supplementary question. What is the pali root of the word 'bhūta'?
Bhū, from which we get the verb bhavati.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

Srilankaputra
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Re: Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:25 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:18 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:05 am
I also have a supplementary question. What is the pali root of the word 'bhūta'?
Bhū, from which we get the verb bhavati.
Thank you, Bhante! :anjali:
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Srilankaputra
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:56 am
Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by Srilankaputra » Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:49 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:18 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:05 am
I also have a supplementary question. What is the pali root of the word 'bhūta'?
Bhū, from which we get the verb bhavati.
Bhante,

Is 'yathābhūta' equivalent to 'paccupanna' ?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:41 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:49 pm
Is 'yathābhūta' equivalent to 'paccupanna' ?
I'm not aware of any contexts where yathābhūta could be substituted for paccuppanna, or vice versa. Nor do the commentaries ever gloss either term with the other.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

thomaslaw
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Re: Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:06 am

manas wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:57 pm
Obviously, I have a rough idea; bhūta would be 'as they are / (have come to be?), ñāṇa would be knowledge, dassanam refers to vision, yes? (I'm not sure about yathā). Anyway, I would like a more exact & thorough breakdown & explanation of these, if anyone could kindly assist with that?

Also: how is this 'knowledge & vision' special? Is this what distinguishes the stream-winner, from the faith or dhamma-follower? Is this the moment one 'enters the Noble Eightfold Path' / attains right view?

Thank you for reading.
:anjali:
It refers to: For the ending of suffering, one knows (jaanaati) and sees (passati) things as they really are (or yourself as you really are) according to the right view, i.e. the four truths/things (or altogether from the two to seven things), and anicca, dukkha, anatta.
See Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A Comparative Study Based on the Sutra-anga portion of the Pali Samyutta-Nikaya and the Chinese Samyukta-agama (Series: Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 2000), pp. 34-6, 50, 52-3.

The two things are the arising and the cessation of the five aggregates.
The seven things are the five aggregates/sense spheres, the arising, the cessation, the way leading to the cessation; the flavour, the danger, and the giving up of the five aggregates.

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manas
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Re: Regarding the term, 'Yathābhūtañāṇadassanam'

Post by manas » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:00 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:06 am
manas wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:57 pm
Obviously, I have a rough idea; bhūta would be 'as they are / (have come to be?), ñāṇa would be knowledge, dassanam refers to vision, yes? (I'm not sure about yathā). Anyway, I would like a more exact & thorough breakdown & explanation of these, if anyone could kindly assist with that?

Also: how is this 'knowledge & vision' special? Is this what distinguishes the stream-winner, from the faith or dhamma-follower? Is this the moment one 'enters the Noble Eightfold Path' / attains right view?

Thank you for reading.
:anjali:
It refers to: For the ending of suffering, one knows (jaanaati) and sees (passati) things as they really are (or yourself as you really are) according to the right view, i.e. the four truths/things (or altogether from the two to seven things), and anicca, dukkha, anatta.
See Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A Comparative Study Based on the Sutra-anga portion of the Pali Samyutta-Nikaya and the Chinese Samyukta-agama (Series: Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 2000), pp. 34-6, 50, 52-3.

The two things are the arising and the cessation of the five aggregates.
The seven things are the five aggregates/sense spheres, the arising, the cessation, the way leading to the cessation; the flavour, the danger, and the giving up of the five aggregates.
Thank you.
Seeking your own happiness,
you should pull out your own arrow:
your own lamentation, longing, & sorrow.

With arrow pulled out,
independent,
attaining peace of awareness,
all grief transcended,
griefless you are
unbound.


(excerpt, Sn 3:8)

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