Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
Post Reply
Calmoid
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:49 am

Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Calmoid » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:32 am

Hi to all Pali and Dhamma-Vinaya Experts like @Dhammanando

According to my knowledge, milk is considered in the vinaya as a food and not as an allowable 'drink' which can be consumed in the afternoon.
Mv.VI.34.21 contains an allowance for the five products of the cow: milk, curds, buttermilk, butter, and ghee. The Commentary mentions that each of these five may be taken separately—i.e., the allowance does not mean that all five must be taken together. Milk and curds are classed as “finer staple foods” under Pc 39, but in other contexts they fit under the definition of non-staple food. All other dairy products—except for fresh butter and ghee when used as tonics (see NP 23)—are non-staple foods. One of the ten disputed points that led to the convening of the Second Council was the issue of whether thin sour milk—milk that has passed the state of being milk but not yet arrived at the state of being buttermilk—would count inside or outside the general category of staple/non-staple food under Pc 35. The decision of the Council was that it was inside the category, and thus a bhikkhu who has turned down an offer of further food would commit the offense under that rule if he later in the morning consumed thin sour milk that was not left over.
Then the other day a Thai monk showed me a sutta in the Khuddaka Nikaya, Mahāniddesa, Tuvaṭakasuttaniddesa which says that Buddha allowed beside of the usual 8 allowable drinks (mango juice, seedless banana juice, ...) also 8 other drinks of which the last one is MILK!

I searched for the English translation of that sutta but I couldn't find one. Can someone who is able to read Pali check if that is true and explain to me these apparently opposing guidelines? Vinaya says "Not allowed", Dhamma says "Allowed"!?

Does someone have an English translation of that sutta? Does someone have access to the Pali Text Society English Pali Canon?

Attached a photograph of the respective sutta in thai.

Pali resource
https://suttacentral.net/mnd14/pli/ms

Many thanks!
Attachments
pali.jpg
Photocopy of the sutta in thai
Last edited by Calmoid on Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Calmoid
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:49 am

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Calmoid » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:48 am

I decided to add the commentary of that sutta for clarification for those you can read Thai and are interested.
Attachments
Pali 2.jpg
Commentary

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 3897
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:57 am

The relevant passage seems to be in paragraph 159.
aṭṭha pānāni — ambapānaṃ, jambupānaṃ, cocapānaṃ, mocapānaṃ, madhupānaṃ, muddikapānaṃ, sālukapānaṃ, phārusakapānaṃ.
Eight drinks: mango-juice, rose-apple-juice, cocoa-nut-juice, banana-juice, honey-juice, grape-juice, sāluka-juice, and a bitter flower juice.

No mention of milk (khīra) there. I know of a Thai tradition that drinking soya milk after noon is allowable.

If in doubt, chuck it out. To make use of what is allowable thinking it to be not-allowable, or doubtful whether it is allowable or not, is an offence of wrong-doing if it is allowable, and an offence to be confessed if it is not-allowable.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

SarathW
Posts: 12790
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by SarathW » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:05 am

Eight drinks: mango-juice, rose-apple-juice, cocoa-nut-juice, banana-juice, honey-juice, grape-juice, sāluka-juice, and a bitter flower juice.
Does this mean say, a monk can't eat a mango afternoon but can have a mango juice?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4843
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Jaroen Dhamma Cave, Mae Wang Huai Rin, Lamphun

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:38 pm

Calmoid wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:32 am
Then the other day a Thai monk showed me a sutta in the Khuddaka Nikaya, Mahāniddesa, Tuvaṭakasuttaniddesa which says that Buddha allowed beside of the usual 8 allowable drinks (mango juice, seedless banana juice, ...) also 8 other drinks of which the last one is MILK!
The Niddesa passage is explaining the word "drink" in the Suttanipāta verse:
He would not store up goods that he gets,
Whether food and drink,
Other edibles or cloth,
And he would not be afraid of not getting anything.
It gives two lists of eight kinds of beverage. The second list of eight includes milk:
kosambapānaṃ, kolapānaṃ, badarapānaṃ, ghatapānaṃ, telapānaṃ, payopānaṃ, yāgupānaṃ, rasapānaṃ
But the context is not one that's concerned with specifying at what time of day the various types of beverage are allowable. It says nothing at all about the Buddha allowing or not allowing anything. In short, it has nothing to do with Vinaya.

Your friend's mistake, I think, is that when the Pali pāna is being used as a loanword in monastic Thai it normally bears the narrow sense: "beverage that monks can drink after midday"; and so I guess he is wrongly assuming that this is what it means in Pali. In fact it simply means 'beverage'.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

Calmoid
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:49 am

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Calmoid » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:41 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:57 am
The relevant passage seems to be in paragraph 159.
aṭṭha pānāni — ambapānaṃ, jambupānaṃ, cocapānaṃ, mocapānaṃ, madhupānaṃ, muddikapānaṃ, sālukapānaṃ, phārusakapānaṃ.
Eight drinks: mango-juice, rose-apple-juice, cocoa-nut-juice, banana-juice, honey-juice, grape-juice, sāluka-juice, and a bitter flower juice.

No mention of milk (khīra) there. I know of a Thai tradition that drinking soya milk after noon is allowable.

If in doubt, chuck it out. To make use of what is allowable thinking it to be not-allowable, or doubtful whether it is allowable or not, is an offence of wrong-doing if it is allowable, and an offence to be confessed if it is not-allowable.
Much merits Bhante! Because of you I could identify the section I was looking for:
Tenāha bhagavā—

“Phassena yadā phuṭṭhassa,
Paridevaṃ bhikkhu na kareyya kuhiñci;
Bhavañca nābhijappeyya,
Bheravesu ca na sampavedheyyā”ti.
Annānamatho pānānaṃ,
Khādanīyānamathopi

khādanīyānaṃ athopi ^snp4.14#732 [Tuvaṭakasutta]
vatthānaṃ;
Laddhā na sannidhiṃ kayirā,
Na ca parittase tāni alabhamāno.

Annānamatho pānānaṃ, khādanīyānamathopi vatthānan ti. Annānan ti odano kummāso sattu maccho maṃsaṃ. Pānānan ti aṭṭha pānāni—ambapānaṃ, jambupānaṃ, cocapānaṃ, mocapānaṃ, madhupānaṃ, muddikapānaṃ, sālūkapānaṃ, phārusakapānaṃ. Aparānipi aṭṭha pānāni— kosambapānaṃ, kolapānaṃ, badarapānaṃ, ghatapānaṃ, telapānaṃ,
payopānaṃ, yāgupānaṃ, rasapānaṃ. Khādanīyānan ti piṭṭhakhajjakaṃ, pūvakhajjakaṃ, mūlakhajjakaṃ, tacakhajjakaṃ, pattakhajjakaṃ, pupphakhajjakaṃ, phalakhajjakaṃ. Vatthānan ti cha cīvarāni—khomaṃ, kappāsikaṃ, koseyyaṃ, kambalaṃ, sāṇaṃ, bhaṅganti— annānamatho pānānaṃ khādanīyānamathopi vatthānaṃ.


Payopanam - Paya means milk isn't it!?
25) Paya (p. 417) Paya ...Ved. payas, nt, of pī] milk, juice J i.204;

Calmoid
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:49 am

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Calmoid » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:00 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:38 pm
Calmoid wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:32 am
Then the other day a Thai monk showed me a sutta in the Khuddaka Nikaya, Mahāniddesa, Tuvaṭakasuttaniddesa which says that Buddha allowed beside of the usual 8 allowable drinks (mango juice, seedless banana juice, ...) also 8 other drinks of which the last one is MILK!
The Niddesa passage is explaining the word "drink" in the Suttanipāta verse:
He would not store up goods that he gets,
Whether food and drink,
Other edibles or cloth,
And he would not be afraid of not getting anything.
It gives two lists of eight kinds of beverage. The second list of eight includes milk:
kosambapānaṃ, kolapānaṃ, badarapānaṃ, ghatapānaṃ, telapānaṃ, payopānaṃ, yāgupānaṃ, rasapānaṃ
But the context is not one that's concerned with specifying at what time of day the various types of beverage are allowable. It says nothing at all about the Buddha allowing or not allowing anything. In short, it has nothing to do with Vinaya.

Your friend's mistake, I think, is that when the Pali pāna is being used as a loanword in monastic Thai it normally bears the narrow sense: "beverage that monks can drink after midday"; and so I guess he is wrongly assuming that this is what it means in Pali. In fact it simply means 'beverage'.
Many thanks for your insightful elaborations! :anjali: Yes context is key, that's why i wanted to check with others and read the whole sutta in English.

Glad and grateful being able to ask a learned experienced elder monk! Much merits Bhante! :smile: 🙏🙏🙏

Do you by chance have a complete translation?

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4843
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Jaroen Dhamma Cave, Mae Wang Huai Rin, Lamphun

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:57 pm

Calmoid wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:00 pm
Do you by chance have a complete translation?
There are some extracts from the Mahāniddesa in Bhikkhu Bodhi's Suttanipāta translation, but not of this particular passage. He has generally only selected passages that are of some doctrinal interest. An illustration of the meaning of "drink" by giving sixteen examples of things you can drink is not the sort of passage that would be likely to interest him.

Here's my rather quick translation of the second list of eight:

1. kosambapānaṃ - soapberry juice
2. kolapānaṃ - jackal jujube juice
3. badarapānaṃ - jujube juice
4. ghatapānaṃ - perhaps liquid ghee, though the Thai translation has Cynometra cauliflora juice
5. telapānaṃ - water mixed with oil
6. payopānaṃ - milk
7. yāgupānaṃ - the water that rice has been cooked in
8. rasapānaṃ - flavoured water
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

Calmoid
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:49 am

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Calmoid » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:15 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:57 pm
Calmoid wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:00 pm
Do you by chance have a complete translation?
There are some extracts from the Mahāniddesa in Bhikkhu Bodhi's Suttanipāta translation, but not of this particular passage. He has generally only selected passages that are of some doctrinal interest. An illustration of the meaning of "drink" by giving sixteen examples of things you can drink is not the sort of passage that would be likely to interest him.

Here's my rather quick translation of the second list of eight:

1. kosambapānaṃ - soapberry juice
2. kolapānaṃ - jackal jujube juice
3. badarapānaṃ - jujube juice
4. ghatapānaṃ - perhaps liquid ghee, though the Thai translation has Cynometra cauliflora juice
5. telapānaṃ - water mixed with oil
6. payopānaṃ - milk
7. yāgupānaṃ - the water that rice has been cooked in
8. rasapānaṃ - flavoured water
Very kind of you Bhante, sadhu!

Calmoid
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:49 am

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Calmoid » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:24 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:38 pm
Calmoid wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:32 am
Then the other day a Thai monk showed me a sutta in the Khuddaka Nikaya, Mahāniddesa, Tuvaṭakasuttaniddesa which says that Buddha allowed beside of the usual 8 allowable drinks (mango juice, seedless banana juice, ...) also 8 other drinks of which the last one is MILK!
The Niddesa passage is explaining the word "drink" in the Suttanipāta verse:
He would not store up goods that he gets,
Whether food and drink,
Other edibles or cloth,
And he would not be afraid of not getting anything.
It gives two lists of eight kinds of beverage. The second list of eight includes milk:
kosambapānaṃ, kolapānaṃ, badarapānaṃ, ghatapānaṃ, telapānaṃ, payopānaṃ, yāgupānaṃ, rasapānaṃ
But the context is not one that's concerned with specifying at what time of day the various types of beverage are allowable. It says nothing at all about the Buddha allowing or not allowing anything. In short, it has nothing to do with Vinaya.

Your friend's mistake, I think, is that when the Pali pāna is being used as a loanword in monastic Thai it normally bears the narrow sense: "beverage that monks can drink after midday"; and so I guess he is wrongly assuming that this is what it means in Pali. In fact it simply means 'beverage'.
Bhante, may I humbly forward the grateful thanks of the Thai Ajahn who held the view that those other 8 drinks are also yamakalika, to you, he realised his mistake and declared that he will abstain from consuming milk after midday from now on.
:anjali: :anjali: :anjali: :thanks:

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4843
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Jaroen Dhamma Cave, Mae Wang Huai Rin, Lamphun

Re: Dhamma VS Vinaya - ist MILK an allowable drink or not?

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:49 pm

Calmoid wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:24 pm
Bhante, may I humbly forward the grateful thanks of the Thai Ajahn who held the view that those other 8 drinks are also yamakalika, to you, he realised his mistake and declared that he will abstain from consuming milk after midday from now on.
:anjali: :anjali: :anjali: :thanks:
Sādhu.

:thumbsup:
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Wizard in the Forest and 22 guests