The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

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DooDoot
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The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:10 am

Dear Pali gurus

My 1st question:

I was reading AN 3.97, which says:
Mendicants, a fine royal thoroughbred with three factors is worthy of a king, fit to serve a king, and considered a factor of kingship.

Tīhi, bhikkhave, aṅgehi samannāgato rañño bhadro assājānīyo rājāraho hoti rājabhoggo, rañño aṅganteva saṅkhayaṃ gacchati.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.97/en/sujato
At 1st glance, saṅkhaya above appears to be the same as in "paṭisaṅkhāya". However, at 2nd glace, paṭisaṅkhāya looks like paṭi+saṅkha+āya [dat; gen]. The suffix "ayaṃ" in AN 3.97 I cannot locate.

However, the word "saṅkhayā" also means "destruction", as in:
Mendicants, you should memorize that brief statement on freedom through the ending of craving. But the mendicant Sāti, the fisherman’s son, is caught in a vast net of craving, a tangle of craving.”

Imaṃ kho me tumhe, bhikkhave, saṅkhittena taṇhāsaṅkhayavimuttiṃ dhāretha, sātiṃ pana bhikkhuṃ kevaṭṭaputtaṃ mahātaṇhājālataṇhāsaṅghāṭappaṭimukkan”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato
saṃ + khaya

khaya
masculine
waste; destruction; decay; consummation of
It appears one word is related to 'sankhara' (saṃ+kara) and the other word is related to saṃ + khaya.

Are the words above spelt exactly the same? If so, please kindly explain if & how they are different? What's going on with the saṅkhaya in SN 3.97?

Thank you :smile:
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by DooDoot » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:48 am

My second question:

In plain English, how can we differentiate between saṅkhaya & parikkhaya?
saṃ˚
indeclinable
prefix, implying conjunction & completeness; saṃ˚; is after vi˚; (19') the most frequent (16') of all Pāli prefixes. Its primary meaning is “together”
pari
a prefix denoting completion
all round; altogether; completely.
I am considering this verse:
With the ending of relish for becoming,
Nandībhavaparikkhayā,

the finishing of perception and consciousness,
Saññāviññāṇasaṅkhayā;

and the cessation and stilling of feelings:
Vedanānaṃ nirodhā upasamā,

that, sir, is how I understand liberation,
Evaṃ khvāhaṃ āvuso jānāmi;

emancipation and seclusion for beings.
Sattānaṃ nimokkhaṃ pamokkhaṃ vivekan”ti.
Thank you :smile:
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:55 pm

This question remains unanswered.

I found sankhaya again in the following:
A Realized One is freed from reckoning in terms of form. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom,

Rūpasaṅkhayavimutto kho, vaccha, tathāgato gambhīro appameyyo duppariyogāḷho—

https://suttacentral.net/mn72/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by ToVincent » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:58 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:10 am
Dear Pali gurus
Well, I'm no (Pali) guru, nor dear.

___________

संक्षय saṃkṣaya [saṃ- kṣaya]

क्षय kṣaya [kṣáya] √ kṣi .

क्षि kṣi
- to destroy , corrupt , ruin , make an end of (acc.) , kill , injure RV. AV.
- to destroy , ruin , make an end of (acc.) , finish MBh.

- to be diminished , decrease , wane (as the moon) , waste away , perish RV. AV. ŚBr.
- to weaken Mn. MBh.

___________

Saṅkhyā

Saṅkha & Saṅkhyā [fr.saṁ+khyā] 1.enumeration,calculation,estimating
2.number 3.denomination,definition,word,name.


"Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea".
MN 72 (Bodhi)

_________

Again, Sujato guru is just a pale and bad copy of Bikkhu Bodhi - who is already a poor lexicographer, sometimes.

Sujato is useless; if for the speed his site allows us to reach suttas & their parallels.
Technology does not make a good translator; does it ?
Nor does the original message of Buddhism have to equate the messages we see in advertising on tele, papers and radio; does it?
.
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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:08 am

ToVincent wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:58 am
संक्षय saṃkṣaya [saṃ- kṣaya]

क्षय kṣaya [kṣáya] √ kṣi .

क्षि kṣi
- to destroy , corrupt , ruin , make an end of (acc.) , kill , injure RV. AV.
- to destroy , ruin , make an end of (acc.) , finish MBh.

- to be diminished , decrease , wane (as the moon) , waste away , perish RV. AV. ŚBr.
- to weaken Mn. MBh.
OK. I already found this above. Thanks ToVi.
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:58 am
Saṅkha & Saṅkhyā [fr.saṁ+khyā] 1.enumeration,calculation,estimating 2.number 3.denomination,definition,word,name.
Thank you. Very good. https://www.sanskritdictionary.com/?q=k ... ion=Search "In four ways, young householder, should one who gives good counsel be understood as a warm-hearted friend: (i) he restrains one from doing evil, (ii) he encourages one to do good, (iii) he informs one of what is unknown to oneself... " :thanks:
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:58 am
Again, Sujato guru is just a pale and bad copy of Bikkhu Bodhi - who is already a poor lexicographer, sometimes.
My questions appear unrelated to anything Ven. Sujato has done. His computer dictionary function obviously cannot be perfect.
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:58 am
Sujato is useless;
Imo, his Sutta Central is by far the most valuable Dhamma asset I have ever used. As for your good self, you were able to answer one of my questions but not all (such as omitting saṅkhaya vs parikkhaya) but i think you made some good quality merit (leading to heaven). The Buddha taught the results of merit often vary in their quantum dependent upon Whom the merit is given.
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:58 am
Technology does not make a good translator; does it ?
Imo translations do not matter so much because being a perfect translator still does not mean the meaning of the teaching is understood; for example "jati" & "satta". I think what matters is following the definitions of words found in the suttas and how words are used in context. For example, the word "satta" is inherent in the definition of "jati" and "satta" per SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 appears unambiguously to refer to a "view" or "mentally constructed idea".

Anyway. Thank you for your assistance. As the Buddha instructed, I try to have gratitude for even the smallest gift. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by ToVincent » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:15 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:08 am
As for your good self, you were able to answer one of my questions but not all (such as omitting saṅkhaya vs parikkhaya) but i think you made some good quality merit (leading to heaven). The Buddha taught the results of merit often vary in their quantum dependent upon Whom the merit is given.
...
Anyway. Thank you for your assistance. As the Buddha instructed, I try to have gratitude for even the smallest gift.

Sounds like you have a high opinion of yourself.

And I suppose that I am going to an even higher heaven because, if I do answer you, I do it mostly for the others on this forum.

An now I suppose that I will go even higher, thanks to you. For I answer you on "pari" in parikkhayā.
Pari denotes a lots of things (more than the CPD can tell you) :
परि pari
- ind. round , around , about , round about
- fully , abundantly , richly (esp. ibc. (where also [ parī ]) to express fulness or high degree) RV.
- as a prep. ( with acc.) about (in space and time) RV. AV.
- beyond , more than AV.
- ( with abl.) from , away from , out of RV. AV. ŚBr.
- after the lapse of Mn. MBh.
- in consequence or on account or for the sake of RV. AV.
- according to RV.
Pick your choice.
.
_______
Doodoot wrote:For example, the word "satta" is inherent in the definition of "jati" and "satta" per SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 appears unambiguously to refer to a "view" or "mentally constructed idea"..

Let people decide what your definitions (jati, satta, saṅkhaya, etc.) are, compared to others'.
Let them decide.

_________
Doodoot wrote: OK. I already found this above.

Just wanted to add the root from wich it comes from:
संक्षय saṃkṣaya [saṃ- kṣaya]
क्षय kṣaya [kṣáya] √ kṣi .
क्षि kṣi

√ क्षि kṣi compared to the root √ ख्या khyā[/quote]
.
__________

As far as Sujato is concerned, I still think that his translation of saṅkhayaṃ as "considered", an even ("reckoning") come out of knowhere.
Mendicants, a fine royal thoroughbred with three factors is worthy of a king, fit to serve a king, and classified as a factor of kingship.
AN 3.97
Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea".
MN 72 (Bodhi)


His translations are just mere plagiarism of Bodhi, with few undesirable changes, like in this case - when he is not just merely taking crucial words out of the sentences.
Useless & insignificantly violative.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:53 am

ToVincent wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:15 pm
And I suppose that I am going to an even higher heaven because, if I do answer you, I do it mostly for the others on this forum.
Like Jesus Christ, there is The One that can separate the wheat from the chaff. If they bestow approval, the Father in Heaven will reward.
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:15 pm
An now I suppose that I will go even higher, thanks to you. For I answer you on "pari" in parikkhayā.
Pari denotes a lots of things (more than the CPD can tell you) :
परि pari
- ind. round , around , about , round about
- fully , abundantly , richly (esp. ibc. (where also [ parī ]) to express fulness or high degree) RV.
- as a prep. ( with acc.) about (in space and time) RV. AV.
- beyond , more than AV.
- ( with abl.) from , away from , out of RV. AV. ŚBr.
- after the lapse of Mn. MBh.
- in consequence or on account or for the sake of RV. AV.
- according to RV.
Pick your choice.
Thanks but I still don't understand how to differentiate saṅkhaya & parikkhaya below:
With the ending of relish for becoming,
Nandībhavaparikkhayā,

the finishing of perception and consciousness,
Saññāviññāṇasaṅkhayā;

By the utter destruction of delight in existence,
By the extinction of perception and consciousness,
By the cessation and appeasement of feelings: (vedanānaṃ nirodhā upasamā)
It is thus, friend, that I know for beings—
Emancipation, release, seclusion. (sattānaṃ nimokkhaṃ pamokkhaṃ vivekan)

https://suttacentral.net/sn1.2/en/bodhi
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.2/en/sujato
I think there are problems with the above verse either due to it addressed to a deva in the language understood by the deva. Also, I don't now why there is an "and" between "saññāviññāṇa" but, as expected, not between "nandībhava". The translations appears strange because they refer to an extinction of consciousness yet also to an appeasement of feelings. If consciousness was literally destroyed, why would feeling be mentioned? :shrug:

I think the verse might be more accurately translated as follows; where the word "sanna" has the common meaning of the lengthier "thinking discriminating" rather than the meaning of the very short sanna that is "mere recognition":
DootDoo wrote:Nandībhavaparikkhayā [inst.; abl,],
Saññāviññāṇasaṅkhayā; [inst.; abl,]
Vedanānaṃ [gen.] nirodhā [inst.] upasamā [inst.],
Evaṃ khvāhaṃ āvuso jānāmi;
Sattānaṃ [gen.] nimokkhaṃ [acc.] pamokkhaṃ [acc.] vivekan [acc.]

By/with delight in creating/becoming's all round destruction.
By/with discriminations towards consciousness thoroughly ending.
By/with feelings' ceasing [to impinge] & appeasement:
It is thus, friend, that I know
Beings have emancipation, release, seclusion.
Therefore, i guess "parikkhayā" might be similar to "sabba", i.e., the destruction of all types of becoming. Where "saṃ+khayā" might mean "thoroughness", such as a cloth is thoroughly cleaned.

I guess my view is a good translation should bring the subtleties of language to life.

:smile: :shrug:
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by ToVincent » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:53 am
I think there are problems with the above verse either due to it addressed to a deva in the language understood by the deva.

!?!?!?!
________
Doodoot wrote: The translations appears strange because they refer to an extinction of consciousness yet also to an appeasement of feelings. If consciousness was literally destroyed, why would feeling be mentioned? :shrug:

Note that the parallel (SA 1268) gives a quite different reading:

喜滅盡,我心解脫;
with the end of desire, the ceto? (我心 => 心: citta + 我=wǒ: self ["I"] - gets liberated (cetovimutti).

心解脫已,
Once the citta is liberated,

故知一切眾生所著、所集,
hence we know all the many "arisings" of attachment, that has been gathered.

決定解脫、廣解脫、極廣解脫
the certitude of that liberation, the width of that liberation, the immense (lit. very) width of that liberation.

Should we consider this passage to have a strict parallel?
If not, should we bother with it?

Note that SA-2 179 is even different than SA 1268 (e. g. it addresses the ceto as the "mine" citta (我之心), Instead of the "I" citta (我心)).

Pretty messy sutta/sutras parallels indeed.
.
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.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:29 am

ToVincent wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:47 am
!?!?!?!
There are common words in different languages, such as perception & consciousness. Whether it is Brahmanism, Buddhism or Modern Psychology, these words can have differences in respective definitions. For example in SN 7.6, DN 11 & MN 49, and also in the DN 15 which is said was created for propagation to Brahmans, the term "nama-rupa" obviously retains its Brahmanistic meaning of "naming-forms" rather than has the Buddhist meaning of "mentality-materiality" (as found in SN 12.2, MN 9, etc). Similarly, SN 1.2 was spoken to a deva therefore the words "sanna" and even "consciousness" may possibly have a Brahmanistic bent. I suggested or theorized with reasonableness that if the utter destruction of consciousness occurs then there would be no logical reason to mention "feelings" or even "solitude" in the teaching. In short, I hypothesize the translations of Bodhi & Sujato might be inaccurate, particularly, in their translation of "saññāviññāṇasaṅkhayā". Kind regards :smile:
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by ToVincent » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:02 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:29 am
The term "nama-rupa" obviously retains its Brahmanistic meaning of "naming-forms" rather than has the Buddhist meaning of "mentality-materiality.
?!?!
Lesson of "Brahmanism" from someone who just encountered Veda for the first time a day ago, I suppose.
(Stackex or SC are sound no references to be ludicrously plagarized from, you know).

Indeed, it is a bit more complicated than that, I would say.
The views of nama-rupa from the Upaniṣad (ChUp.), were already quite different than the Āraṇyaka one's (BṛĀr.Up.) - not to speak about the views of the Sāṃkhya (sāṃ+khya).

So what does Brahmanistic meaning of "naming-forms" can really mean?

I don't think I want to get into that with you.

--------

As far as "classification" (naming) in Buddhism and Vedism is concerned, this is what I know.
As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind
goes to an end that cannot be classified (named),
so the sage freed from the name-body
goes to an end that cannot be classified (named).
(Thanissaro)
Note: "Named" is preferred. Otherwise, it's a bit "Sāṃkhya" in its meaning.

Atthaṃ paleti na upeti saṅkhaṃ;
Evaṃ munī nāmakāyā vimutto,
Atthaṃ paleti na upeti saṅkhaṃ”.
(Snp 5.7 (aka Snp 5.6) Upasī­va)
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/snp5.7#6


√ ख्या khyā
- to tell , say , declare Mn. MBh.
- to be named , be known MBh.
- to make known , promulgate , proclaim Mn. MBh.

I think you haven't quite grasped what is meant by jati (production/birth) due to the nāma shebang.
In another thread I was saying that:
we are talking about a birth (production), that is the result of nāma (as defined by the nikayas) (as seen on this visual aid https://justpaste.it/1695d), that is also mentioned in the Arv5; namely, "the accomplishment (अभिनिर्हृ abhinirvṛtti) of the nāma-aggregates".
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=35685&sid=7278027c ... 45#p534493
Birth is more concerned with the production (jati) of the cetana in nama, than by somekind of "identity" of a being/self. As you see on the visual aid, it is manosancetana that imports; not the "identity" of the being.

I should add that Vitakka-Vicāra as shown here:
https://justpaste.it/img/62c4c6b65f2a5b ... 710f2f.png
comes right out from feeling (more properly defined as felt experience and ensuing inquiry) and "perception" (more properly defined as "assumptions after inquiry, leading to intention) - which are the components of the citta/ceto).
Which in turn, leads to (cetana), desire, craving, existence and production (birth).

Aren't we just looking for this production(birth/jati) to end?
Aren't we humans, aiming for the ajo (the "unproducing") ?
https://justpaste.it/19m0u


The day you'll understand that, you certainly are going to make it some kind of shruti coming from your own self, (from your boasted "Mine" and "I"); aren't you?

________


+
Again,, from what Sujato's translation of saṅkhaya as "considered" comes from ?!?!
You make a good pair.
You are really a good disciple of his.
He says ludicrous things; and you nicely elaborate upon it.

I'm off.
Enough wasted time.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:10 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:02 pm
I'm off.
Enough wasted time.
I hope not. While assisting Me with one approved answer generated great merit, I hope your other verbal kammas did not make a greater amount of demerit. I AM often shocked how little 'ottappa' often exists in reincarnation believers & fundamentalists. Best wishes and thanks again.

Grateful for the smallest gift, as the Buddha taught. :thanks:
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by ToVincent » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:17 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:10 pm
ToVincent wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:02 pm
I'm off.
Enough wasted time.
I hope not. While assisting Me with one approved answer generated great merit, I hope your other verbal kammas did not make a greater amount of demerit. I AM often shocked how little 'ottappa' often exists in reincarnation believers & fundamentalists. Best wishes and thanks again.

Grateful for the smallest gift, as the Buddha taught. :thanks:
This kind of derisory depreciating remarks are all yours.

Indeed, what you are trying to make believe, is that you have (so deeply) apprehended the big picture, that you are dealing now with small details like this parisankhya meaning nonsense, (in a sutta with no parallel for that matter) - No wonder.
A "great gift" to this forum, I suppose.

It is indeed nonsense, and a source of confusion, that leads to senseless talks.
I wonder about your intentions.

At least, this post has the benefit to introduce "khya" as part of the naming process, in the more general nāma context.

In that regard, I would like to add another "small gift" to this discussion.

We have seen that there was two definitions of nāma SA 298 & SN 12.2), as @sentinel reminded us here lately:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35695&p=533729&hil ... 10#p533729
They are shown on this sketch:
https://justpaste.it/1695d

In the same way, there are two definitions of the cittasaṅkhāra (SN 41.6 & SA 568).
This time, it is the Chinese version that gives the definition in satta.
Indeed, The Pali version defines cittasaṅkhāra as feeling and "perception" (in cittasaṅkhāra nidāna) ; while the Chinese version defines "citta(/ceto)saṅkhāra" as "perception" (想) & cetanā (思) (in satta).

So on the little sketch - after sañña - there should be not only the vacīsaṅkhāra, but also the cetanā of the citta/cetosaṅkhāra.

Moreover, as Alexi Murdoch genuinely says "don't forget (also) to breathe" - kāyasaṅkhāra.

And when you will finally understand, don't forget to cast all those saṅkhāras away - might they be in the loka, rūpa or arūpa lokas.
I suppose that this is what the suttas/sutas are telling us.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:43 am

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:17 am
Indeed, The Pali version defines cittasaṅkhāra as feeling and "perception" (in cittasaṅkhāra nidāna) ; while the Chinese version defines "citta(/ceto)saṅkhāra" as "perception" (想) & cetanā (思) (in satta).
The Chinese is definitely wrong due it is belatedness and, similar to its probable influence by Abhidhamma, equating "cittasankhara" & "manosankhara". I have made many posts already on the forum about the complete opposite difference of "cittasankhara" & "manosankhara". "Cittasankhara" refers to "sankhara" ("conditioner; fabricator") as a cause of citta. Where as "manosankhara" refers to "sankhara" ("condition; fabrication; formation") as an effect/product of mano. This is plainly found in the suttas; where manosankhara is found in suttas about (mundane) kamma; where as "cittasankhara" is found in what is lofty & supramundane :meditate: , such as SN 12.2, MN 44 & MN 118. In short, perception & feeling are cittasankhara (mind fabricator; cause). Intention (cetanā) is manosankhara (mind fabrication; product). This is very straightfoward. With many merits. May we both attain Nibbana together by skill in stopping perception & citta conditioning the citta to generate greed, hatred & delusion. May our manosankhara (intentions) be pure, as described in Dhp 2. May we be Saints in the footsteps of the Buddhas. :)
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by ToVincent » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:47 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:43 am
I have made many posts already on the forum about the complete opposite difference of "cittasankhara" & "manosankhara".
You mean like here:
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=35367&p=529267&hil ... 44#p529241
and in your following posts.
I didn't even bother to answer that.
For several reasons:

1. Most of the suttas you refer to have no parallels for the particular case of manosaṅkhāra.
AN 4.171 does not have a parallel.
DN 28 is a late sutta (as DN II, in general).
So find us a correct sutta to study that case.

Then, you write:

Remember, there are three types of kamma and the 3rd kamma is called "mano-kamma" and not "citta-kamma":
For after making an intention, one acts
Cetayitvā kammaṃ karoti—
by way of body, speech, and mind.
kāyena vācāya manasā.
AN 6.63

However, as you can see, the kamma is done after the intention (from the polluted citta called ceto - here "cetayitvā").
Maybe as said before, this has to do with manosañcetana; has it?

2. Saṅkhārā as both cause & effect is Buddhism 101, and you haven't discovered anything.
viewtopic.php?t=5909#p92042
Many more occurences of that obviousness, before & after that post.

3. Sujato's poor interpretative (or simplified?!?!) translations of Vitakka-Vicāra as well as saṅkhāra.

4. As for Dhp 1, you write:
Mind (mano) precedes thoughts,
mind is their chief, their quality is made by mind. ["made" = "sankhara"]

Indeed the translation is:
Manopubbaṅgamā dhammā, manoseṭṭhā manomayā.
Where do you see "saṅkhārā in all that.
Dhp 1 does not even mention saṅkhāra in the all sutta! ?!?!?
By the way, people should see note #2 in this translation: https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... -Pairs.htm - very interesting. I would even say "crucial".

________

So, I would just add: "citta (or ceto [in satta],) precedes mano".

________

Also, where did you get that "cittasankhara is found in what is lofty & supramundane" ONLY.
What is ceto for you? Something apart from citta?

_________

You are just a mess, that has dicovered the SC search engine - and that floods your answers with the results you get there; without proper additionnal work.
And you even manage to add your own elucubrations, like in Dhp above.

I'm really off this time.
Useless.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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Re: The Pali words: saṅkhaya & parikkhaya???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:52 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:47 pm
1. Most of the suttas you refer to have no parallels for the particular case of manosaṅkhāra.
The above appears illogical, particularly on a Pali sub-forum. Oh dear. :|
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:47 pm
4. As for Dhp 1, you write:
Mind (mano) precedes thoughts,
mind is their chief, their quality is made by mind. ["made" = "sankhara"]
I do not recall ever writing the above. I said manosankhara is mental action, which, per Dhp 2, has mano as the forerunner.

My point was manosankhara is one of the three types of kamma and is a product/effect of mano.

Where as cittasankhara (perception & feeling) is a cause for the arising of citta states such as greed, hatred & delusion.

Manosankhara & cittasankhara are completely different phenomena. Only Abhidhamma, Agama & Commentaries would make the terms synonymous. In the suttas, there appears to be zero evidence for their synonymity.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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