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What is the meaning of Savitakka and Savicara?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:31 pm
by SarathW
What is the meaning of Savitakka and Savicara?
Please also provide the meaning of Vitakka and Vicara.
Also please give the meaning of Avitakka, Avicara

Re: What is the meaning of Savitakka and Savicara?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:11 am
by kalyanamitta
Very basically:

vitakka = applied thought (where takka connotes the initiation of discursive activity)
vicāra = sustained thought (where cār connotes movement or continuation after having set the gears in motion)

sa = with
a = without

Hopefully others can offer improved renderings. Eager to hear the alternatives.

Re: What is the meaning of Savitakka and Savicara?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:07 am
by upekka
savitakka is the word or words we use when we start meditation. for instance if we want to do metta meditation, if we take 'may all beings vell and happy' and we repeat the same words, those words are savitakka. savichara we can not see. it is the creation part (manasikara) of savitakka.

vitakka is where the word or words come from within. vicara we can not see. it is the creation part (manasikara) of vitakka. vitakka and vichara we experience in first jhana.

avitakka and avichara we experience from the second jhana.

Re: What is the meaning of Savitakka and Savicara?

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:15 pm
by auto
sa = with.
with, together.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato
Seeing a sight with the eye, one is preoccupied with a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity. Cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṃ rūpaṃ upavicarati domanassaṭṭhāniyaṃ rūpaṃ upavicarati upekkhāṭṭhāniyaṃ rūpaṃ upavicarati,
vicara, occupied, taken over.

vitakka vicara, one is occupied with the thoughts what are basis for speech to break out;vaci - speech, expression what one wants to do.

The sa could be similar usage as upa. As of it doesn't change the general meaning of vitakkavicara.

Re: What is the meaning of Savitakka and Savicara?

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:00 pm
by frank k
SarathW wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:31 pm
What is the meaning of Savitakka and Savicara?
Please also provide the meaning of Vitakka and Vicara.
Also please give the meaning of Avitakka, Avicara
If you want to know what V&V means for sure, straight from the Buddha's mouth, here is every usage in the EBT suttas.
It should not take more than 20 min to to a cursory read.

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ttas.html

Re: What is the meaning of Savitakka and Savicara?

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:19 am
by SarathW
Another discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31019

Re: What is the meaning of Savitakka and Savicara?

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:58 pm
by frank k
SarathW wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:19 am
Another discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31019
I believe others have already answered it, but just to confirm,
sa-vitakka and sa-vicara means 'with'-vitakka and 'with'-vicara.
a-vitakka and a-vicara means 'without'-vitakka and 'without' vicara.
As to what vitakka and vicara means, a quick summary:

V&V💭: vitakka & vicāra
Vitakka 💭 = directed thought.
Vicāra 🕵️ = the evaluation of that very same directed thought, not a separate train of thought.
V&V isn't a wild excursion of jumping from one random thought to another random, disconnected thought.


Vicāra explores, inspects, discriminates, evaluates, ponders, scrutinizes, discerns, considers the very same thought initially fixed upon by vitakka.
Vitakka decides on a topic, then gives it to vicara to analyze it further.


⛔ Wrong translations for V&V💭
✅ ☸EBT V&V💭: vitakka & vicāra = directed-thought & evaluation
⛔ Vism. Redefinition V&V💭: applied-thought & sustained-thought (b.nanamoli)
⛔ Vism. Redefinition V&V💭: initial-application & sustained-application (u thittila)
⛔ B.Sujato mistranslation of V&V💭: placing-the-mind & keeping-it-connected
⛔ B.Anālayo mistranslation of V&V💭: [directed] awareness and [sustained] contemplation