Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

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Dhammanando
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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:49 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:16 am
My question is: why must the related ānupassī (eg. kāyānupassī) follow the singular or plural of the related object (e.g. kaye)? In other words, why cannot the translation be "contemplating the bodies (plural) in the body (singular)"?
As Volo has said, it's not that there's any philological requirement to construe the first element of kāyānupassī as singular rather than plural, or vice versa. Nevertheless, the commentators do take it to be singular, with their stock gloss being:
'kāyānupassī' ti kāyaṃ anupassanasīlo, kāyaṃ vā anupassamāno.

'Kāyānupassī' means [either] 'one who habitually contemplates the body' or 'contemplating the body'.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by ToVincent » Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:32 pm

Still, the proper translation, as said before, would be the noticeable (or perceivable) body [far OR close]; (or bodies [far AND close]), among the body (namely the sabbakāya).

But that would be a hard thing to admit from the proponent of an "everything comes from the senses" - as an empiricist, or a phenomenalist, or a logical positivist, or a sensationalist.
Wouldn't it?
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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by DooDoot » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:24 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:49 am
As Volo has said, it's not that there's any philological requirement to construe the first element of kāyānupassī as singular rather than plural, or vice versa. Nevertheless, the commentators do take it to be singular, with their stock gloss being:
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. Bhikkhu Bodhi's "body-contemplator" is certainly interesting because it would make each anupassi compound singular and remove the speculations about the phrases "body in body", "feelings in feelings", etc. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:25 pm

Yet, the above would be correct if:

1. Anupassī were to come from the verb anu+passati that were to mean "to contemplate".
However, the meaning of अनुपश् anupaś [ anu-√ paś ], in Sanskrit, means to look at , perceive, notice. (RV, ŚBr, BṛĀr.Up, ChUp.). And √ paś has the meaning of "discernment" across Mn. and MBh - (which makes it the most probable definition).

2. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, anupassī would mean "contemplateor" if a nupassī was a noun.
But anupassī is an adjective.
The adjective from the verb "to notice" is "noticeable" - or from the verb "to perceive", the adjective is "perceivable". (As in "discerning").

Dhammanando& doodoot are keen on grammar when they want to, aren't they?
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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by Volo » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:41 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:25 pm
2. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, anupassī would mean "contemplateor" if a nupassī was a noun.
But anupassī is an adjective.
Some grammarians classify words ending with -in as nouns, some - as adjectives. Let's say hatthin "elephant" (lit: "one who possesses a hand", i.e. using a trunk as a hand) is clearly a noun, other -in words (like anupassin) can be translated as adjectives as well.
Dhammanando& doodoot are keen on grammar when they want to, aren't they?
I think it was me and not Ven Dhammanando who said about possibility to treat anupassin as a noun. In any case I have no problem in taking it as an adjective.

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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:07 pm

Well then, the context should decide.

1. "Contemplator of the body" >> I see no "discernment" into that. As said before, √ paś has the meaning of "discernment" across Mn. and MBh - (that is to say across Buddha's time).

2. "the noticeable body" >> In which case there is "discernment" between two bodies (kāyā/breaths).
.
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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:33 am

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:25 pm
2. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, anupassī would mean "contemplateor" if a nupassī was a noun.
But anupassī is an adjective.
The adjective from the verb "to notice" is "noticeable" - or from the verb "to perceive", the adjective is "perceivable". (As in "discerning").

Dhammanando & doodoot are keen on grammar when they want to, aren't they?
I'm consistently keen on Pali grammar. If you yourself were keen on it, or were just willing to spend a few hours on it, you might have learned by now that...

In Pali, as in English, whatever word may serve as an adjective may serve also as a noun.

In Pali, in contrast with English, one cannot always know with certainty when a word is serving as an adjective or as a noun. Whereas in English this can be seen from the use of a definite article ("the good, the true and the beautiful,"how are the mighty fallen") or an indefinite article ("a philological incompetent like ToVincent"), in Pali there are no devices for indicating this.

Consequently the distinction between nouns and adjectives in Pali is nowhere near as obvious or as cut and dried as it is in English. Much of the time one simply has no idea if a word is functioning as one or the other. Suppose, for example, we are tasked with translating the salutation:

namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammāsambuddhassa

The words bhagavā, arahanta and sammmāsambuddha may each be either an adjective or a noun:

bhagavā: blessed / blessed one
arahanta: worthy / worthy one
sammāsambuddha: perfectly awakened / perfectly awakened one

And the word tassa might be either a demonstrative pronoun ('to him') or a demonstrative adjective ('to that').

And so there are numerous plausible ways of translating the above salutation:

All adjectives:
Homage to him who is blessed, worthy and perfectly awakened!

All nouns:
Homage to him, the Blessed One, Worthy One, Perfectly Awakened One!
Homage to that Blessed One, Worthy One, Perfectly Awakened One!

A combination of the two:
Homage to that Blessed One who is worthy and perfectly awakened!
Homage to that blessed Worthy One who is perfectly awakened!
Homage to that blessed and worthy Perfectly Awakened One!
Homage to him, the blessed Worthy One who is perfectly awakened!

Etc., etc.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by ToVincent » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:27 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:33 am
...
:redherring:
Then I repeat myself:

Dhammanando & doodoot are keen on grammar when they want to, aren't they?

Well then, the context should decide.

1. "Contemplator of the body" >> I see no "discernment" into that. As said before, √ paś has the meaning of "discernment" across Mn. and MBh - (that is to say across Buddha's time).

2. "the noticeable body" >> In which case there is "discernment" between two bodies (kāyā/breaths).
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:01 am

ToVincent wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:27 am
doodoot
Thanks Vincent but I started this topic to ask about the grammar structure rather than the meaning of words. I have no issues with body-contemplator, as follows:
Doot wrote:When a bhikkhu within the body as a body-contemplator dwells, [he dwells] ardent, with ready-wisdom & with mindfulness, having removed covetousness & distress in relation to the world.
The core message, for me, is right mindfulness acts to remove covetousness & distress (when the bhikkhu is being a body-contemplator).

Regards :smile:
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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by ToVincent » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:01 am
..
I have tried to answer your question (c) in your original post, by giving you a proper grammar, based on a proper lexicography.
You can't just brush either one aside. Can you?

The proper lexicography for viharati is about distinction/discernment - viz. fetch (√ हृ hṛ), apart (वि vi).

The proper lexicography for anupassī is about distinction/discernment also - ( √ paś has the meaning of "discernment" in the pre and post (Buddha's time) Indian literature).

Again, I see no "discernment" in your convoluted and highly interpretative translation.

-------

I know that it is absolutely taboo within some circles, to give to words the meaning they deserve - and I know that, in those circles, grammar must prevail over meaning - even if the latter is absolute nonsense.

So I leave it to you and your friends, to serve us with a "philological" humanistic nonsensical applesauce, based on your grammatical choices alone.

I pass.
.
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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:59 am

ToVincent wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:37 am
Again, I see no "discernment" in your convoluted and highly interpretative translation.
The suttas appear to be in Pali rather than in English. The word "anupassi" is regarded to mean "watch closely". "Discernment" is an English translation of "panna" ("wisdom"). While "anupassi" and "panna" are related, it seems they are regarded to be different; similar to the quote, below:
Discernment (panna) & consciousness (vinnana) are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns.

MN 43
For example, if "anupassi" meant "discernment", it seems there would be no need to introduce the term "vipasana" below.
Thus this Noble Eightfold Path comes to fulfilment in him by development. When he develops this Noble Eightfold Path, the four foundations of mindfulness also come to fulfilment in him by development; the four right kinds of striving also come to fulfilment in him by development; the four bases for spiritual power also come to fulfilment in him by development; the five faculties also come to fulfilment in him by development; the five powers also come to fulfilment in him by development; the seven enlightenment factors also come to fulfilment in him by development. These two things—serenity and insight (vipassana) —occur in him yoked evenly together.

MN 149
Or similarly below:
The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation.

AN 10.61
Importantly, I imagine it is possible to "watch closely" ("anupassi") but not "discern" ("panna"). In my experience, a mind that uses too much effort, willfulness & ego (self) to "watch closely" does not discern or have vipassana. That appears why "anupassi" must be quality controlled with "mindfulness & sampajana".

Kind regards :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:49 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:26 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:37 am
The proper lexicography for viharati is about distinction/discernment - viz. fetch (√ हृ hṛ), apart (वि vi).
ToVincent wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:37 am
I know that it is absolutely taboo within some circles, to give to words the meaning they deserve ...
Oh? Viharati deserves to mean “to fetch apart”? But since when has “to fetch apart” meant anything at all?

Reading your “meaningful” translations reminds me of Oscar Wilde’s concluding quip in his review of a notoriously poor translation of Sa’adi’s Gulistan:
“Sir Edwin Arnold has translated Sa’adi and now someone must translate Sir Edwin Arnold.”
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by ToVincent » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:55 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:26 pm
Oh? Viharati deserves to mean “to fetch apart”? But since when has “to fetch apart” meant anything at all?
Well then, find someone to translate ToVincent.

I am pretty sure that some smart guy, might understand what asunder (apart) means, when one has to fetch (or convey or take back) DISTINCTIVELY that far (dīgha) breath/body/kāya - or instead that rassa (close) breath/body.
[size = 80] I have covered this dīgha/rassa adverbial meaning in another thread. [/size]

Kant used to say that the English language was a bastardized, and therefore, poor language. (Note that Kant didn't always write smart things).
It is sometimes difficult to translate the subtelties of such a profound and pristine language, as the Indian language, without falling into the restricted and uncomprehensible rendition of a no less restricted mind.

Don't be alarmed though. The straightforwardness of the English language, excels in some fields like business - which is a plus; isn't it?
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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:59 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:55 pm
...
Anupassi is related to "passati". The following quote includes "passati":
It’s only natural to truly know and see when your mind is immersed in samādhi.

Dhammatā esā, bhikkhave, yaṃ samāhito yathābhūtaṃ jānāti passati.

https://suttacentral.net/an11.2/en/sujato
Since the above type of "passati" includes discerning "yathābhūtaṃ" ("true reality") and arises from samādhi, is appears your idea that "anupassi" in Right Mindfulness is "discernment" is premature & exaggerated. While "anupassi" obviously includes a degree of "discernment", the teachings of the suttas appear to not equate "anupassi" with the discernment that is "wisdom". Instead, the "anupassi" in Right Mindfulness appears to merely refer to seeing a distinct object; that is all. To support your idea, you need to provide a sutta reference that directly equates "anupassi" with "vipassana yathābhūtaṃ". Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Translation questions about satipatthana & anapanasati

Post by ToVincent » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:59 pm
...
You are just hopeless, with your sutta's references, with no parallel for the extract you are quoting. And just useless in your rationale about not using parallels.

You are just hopeless when it comes to your choice of a translator. In this instance - (AN 11.2) - the lousy translator that is Sujato - that puts "mind" in his translation, when there is no mention whatsoever of citta (or even mano) in that extract.
Sujato adds, substracts, and interprets to his own dubious will.
Sujato is the last translator, who puts the last nail on the coffin of the true Dhamma.

You are just hopeless, when you are interpreting what people say, and pursuing that into some nonsense red herring. In this instance, when you are saying that I translated anupassi as "discernment".
I translated anupassi as an adjective that means "noticeable" or "perceivable", on the ground that the root √ पश् paś [linked to dṛś], implied "discernment" in Buddha's time.
You are hopeless with your bad faith. Unless it is just the limitation of a restricted mind.

You are hopeless when you mix up everything - as meaning that vipassana and anupassi can have the same aim. There are as many "discernments" as there are knowledges in the suttas/sutras (ñāna> pañña > abhiññā - pariñña > aññā > vijjā).
Discern the subtleties.
Anyway, what's that "vipassana yathābhūtaṃ" of yours ?!?!?!© (https://suttacentral.net/search?query=% ... 1%B9%83%22)
You are just (a bloody) hopeless (mess).


You are hopeless with your lousy translations like "yathābhūtaṃ" = "true reality" - when it means "according to what have become".
May I add that generally, you have tried to make absolutely no effort to give a proper meaning to some words in Pali.
No wonder!

In other words, your applesauce is merely indigestible.
And I am wondering about your real intention.
Should I ?
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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