Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

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zan
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Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by zan » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:20 am

Or are they even related?
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DooDoot
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Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:22 am

Yes, they appear related. Despite my mental impairment with grammar, both Pali & English, I can take a guess and hypothesise:

1. Vedana = noun or faculty of feeling or doer

2. Vedayati = verb or action of engaging in feeling or doing

3. vedayita = "felt" = past tense ( :?: )

We can learn by studying the suttas, which is easy:
And why do you call it feeling?
Kiñca, bhikkhave, vedanaṃ vadetha?

It feels; that’s why it’s called ‘feeling’.
Vedayatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘vedanā’ti vuccati.

And what does it feel?
Kiñca vedayati?

It feels pleasure, pain, and neutral.
Sukhampi vedayati, dukkhampi vedayati, adukkhamasukhampi vedayati.

It feels; that’s why it’s called ‘feeling’.
Vedayatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘vedanā’ti vuccati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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zan
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Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by zan » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:29 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:22 am
Yes, they appear related. Despite my mental impairment with grammar, both Pali & English, I can take a guess and hypothesise:

1. Vedana = faculty of feeling or noun

2. Vedayati = verb or action of engaging in feeling

3. vedayita = "felt" = past tense ( :?: )
Thanks! Do you know of a resource where this could be located? Like a word chart or something showing all the conjugations of it, or at least how they share a root?
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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DooDoot
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Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:35 am

Below is good:
The Buddha has spoken of three feelings.
tisso vedanā vuttā bhagavatā.

Pleasant, painful, and neutral feeling.
Sukhā vedanā, dukkhā vedanā, adukkhamasukhā vedanā

These are the three feelings the Buddha has spoken of.
imā tisso vedanā vuttā bhagavatā.

But the Buddha has also said:
Vuttaṃ kho panetaṃ bhagavatā:

‘Suffering includes whatever is felt.’
‘yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmin’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.11/en/sujato
:candle:
zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:29 am
Thanks! Do you know of a resource where this could be located? Like a word chart or something showing all the conjugations of it, or at least how they share a root?
I cannot really advise here but I think it is very basic. A word such as "vedayita" or "vedayiti" generally looks like a "verb" to me. Ven. Dhammanando or Volo can help you here. I haven't looked into how "verbs" are structured (for example, the ending of "i" vs "a") however it will be very basic.

As I suggested, the easiest way to understand is to simply examine how the word is used in the context of a sutta. Search for the word at Sutta Central (here) and read some suttas it is used in. :smile:
PTS Pali English Dictionary
vedayita
felt, experienced
pp. of vedeti

https://suttacentral.net/define/vedayita
Concise Pali English Dictionary
vedeti
vid + e
feels; senses; knows.

https://suttacentral.net/define/vedeti
The only book I have tried to read is the following but I have not yet reached the part on verbs because I have mental impairment with grammar. :tongue:
1. Examples of verbs by addition of various prefixes of the verb gacchati:

āgacchati to come to or towards, approach, go back, arrive
āgameti to cause somebody to come to one, i.e. to wait (caus.)
abbhuggacchati to go forth, go out, rise into
abhigacchati to go forward, to approach
abhisamāgacchati to come to (understand) completely, to grasp fully
adhigacchati to acquire, to attain, to find
anugacchati to follow
anvāgacchati to follow, pursue
apagacchati to go away, to leave
atigacchati to overcome, to conquer
atthaṅgacchati to disappear, to go out of existence
avagacchati to come, to approach, visit
coggacchati to set, to go down
gameti to send out, to make go (caus.)
niggacchati to proceed from
ogacchati to go down, to sink
paṭivigacchati to go apart again, to go away or asunder
paccāgacchati to go back to, to return
paccuggacchati to leave, to go out
samāgacchati to meet together, to assemble, to associate with
samadhigacchati to attain
samuggacchati to arise
saṇgacchati to meet, to come together
udāgacchati to come to completion
uggacchati to rise, get up out of
upāgacchati to come, to arrive at, reach, obtain

:reading:

8. Conjugation of verbs (ākhyāta)

Verbs are divided in Pāli into seven different groups or classes according to the derivations and
insertions their root undergoes when conjugated. The subsequent examples should suffice:

• For example the first group inserts – a – after the root and before the personal suffixes –ti, – nti, – etc. Thus the example of the root: gam – is assimilated to gac – ch – and arranged under the first group, where always – a – gets inserted and added to the respective root: gac– ch – a –ti: gacchati (to go); vas – a –ti: vasati (to dwell); har – a – ti: harati (to carry);
jīv – a – ti: jīvati (to live).

• Another class or group adds the suffix and then may use changes according to the rules of
sandhi: – ya – to the root: jā - ya – ti: jāyati (to arise); budh – ya – ti: bujjhati (to know); man
– ya – ti: maññati (to think, to imagine).

• Again another class inserts the nigghahita: - ṃ - (which takes the form of the nasal sound
according to the respective group) before the closing consonant of the root: chi – ṃ – da - ti:
chindati (to cut); mu- ṃ -ca-ti: muñcati (to free); li - ṃ-pa-ti: limpati (to stain)
Pāli differentiates between the following tenses, which have individual conjugational endings and
inflections and thus classify:

• three genders (third, second and first)
• two numbers: singular and plural;
• six tenses: present (gacchati), imperfect45, aorist46 (agacchi, altern: agāma; agamī; agañchi;
garahi), perfect47, future (gacchissati), and conditional (agacchissa);
• causative (gamete; gacchāpeti);
• infinitive (gantuṃ; gamitum; gantave; gamanaye ) and gerund (gantvā);
• participles: present (gacchant; gacchamāna), past (gata) and future passive (gantabba);
• three moods: indicative (gacchati ), imperative (gaccha, 2.nd person) and optative
(gaccheyuṃ).
• three voices: active, reflective and passive voice;

https://host.pariyatti.org/plc/EngPaliG ... .audio.pdf
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Volo
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Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by Volo » Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:01 am

zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:29 am
Thanks! Do you know of a resource where this could be located? Like a word chart or something showing all the conjugations of it, or at least how they share a root?
Such things can usually be found in PED (Pali-English dictionary), which is available as Android app (search for Android tipitaka), as pdf file or online (for example from Sutta Central).

Vedayita is past participle:
PED wrote:Vedayita [pp. of vedeti] felt, experienced S i.112; ii.65; iii.46; A ii.198; iv.415; Vism 460.
Vedanā is a noun from the same root:
PED wrote:Vedanā (f.) [fr. ved˚;: see vedeti; cp. Epic Sk. vedanā] feeling, sensation [...]

zan
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by zan » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:35 am
Below is good:
The Buddha has spoken of three feelings.
tisso vedanā vuttā bhagavatā.

Pleasant, painful, and neutral feeling.
Sukhā vedanā, dukkhā vedanā, adukkhamasukhā vedanā

These are the three feelings the Buddha has spoken of.
imā tisso vedanā vuttā bhagavatā.

But the Buddha has also said:
Vuttaṃ kho panetaṃ bhagavatā:

‘Suffering includes whatever is felt.’
‘yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmin’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.11/en/sujato
:candle:
zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:29 am
Thanks! Do you know of a resource where this could be located? Like a word chart or something showing all the conjugations of it, or at least how they share a root?
I cannot really advise here but I think it is very basic. A word such as "vedayita" or "vedayiti" generally looks like a "verb" to me. Ven. Dhammanando or Volo can help you here. I haven't looked into how "verbs" are structured (for example, the ending of "i" vs "a") however it will be very basic.

As I suggested, the easiest way to understand is to simply examine how the word is used in the context of a sutta. Search for the word at Sutta Central (here) and read some suttas it is used in. :smile:
PTS Pali English Dictionary
vedayita
felt, experienced
pp. of vedeti

https://suttacentral.net/define/vedayita
Concise Pali English Dictionary
vedeti
vid + e
feels; senses; knows.

https://suttacentral.net/define/vedeti
The only book I have tried to read is the following but I have not yet reached the part on verbs because I have mental impairment with grammar. :tongue:
1. Examples of verbs by addition of various prefixes of the verb gacchati:

āgacchati to come to or towards, approach, go back, arrive
āgameti to cause somebody to come to one, i.e. to wait (caus.)
abbhuggacchati to go forth, go out, rise into
abhigacchati to go forward, to approach
abhisamāgacchati to come to (understand) completely, to grasp fully
adhigacchati to acquire, to attain, to find
anugacchati to follow
anvāgacchati to follow, pursue
apagacchati to go away, to leave
atigacchati to overcome, to conquer
atthaṅgacchati to disappear, to go out of existence
avagacchati to come, to approach, visit
coggacchati to set, to go down
gameti to send out, to make go (caus.)
niggacchati to proceed from
ogacchati to go down, to sink
paṭivigacchati to go apart again, to go away or asunder
paccāgacchati to go back to, to return
paccuggacchati to leave, to go out
samāgacchati to meet together, to assemble, to associate with
samadhigacchati to attain
samuggacchati to arise
saṇgacchati to meet, to come together
udāgacchati to come to completion
uggacchati to rise, get up out of
upāgacchati to come, to arrive at, reach, obtain

:reading:

8. Conjugation of verbs (ākhyāta)

Verbs are divided in Pāli into seven different groups or classes according to the derivations and
insertions their root undergoes when conjugated. The subsequent examples should suffice:

• For example the first group inserts – a – after the root and before the personal suffixes –ti, – nti, – etc. Thus the example of the root: gam – is assimilated to gac – ch – and arranged under the first group, where always – a – gets inserted and added to the respective root: gac– ch – a –ti: gacchati (to go); vas – a –ti: vasati (to dwell); har – a – ti: harati (to carry);
jīv – a – ti: jīvati (to live).

• Another class or group adds the suffix and then may use changes according to the rules of
sandhi: – ya – to the root: jā - ya – ti: jāyati (to arise); budh – ya – ti: bujjhati (to know); man
– ya – ti: maññati (to think, to imagine).

• Again another class inserts the nigghahita: - ṃ - (which takes the form of the nasal sound
according to the respective group) before the closing consonant of the root: chi – ṃ – da - ti:
chindati (to cut); mu- ṃ -ca-ti: muñcati (to free); li - ṃ-pa-ti: limpati (to stain)
Pāli differentiates between the following tenses, which have individual conjugational endings and
inflections and thus classify:

• three genders (third, second and first)
• two numbers: singular and plural;
• six tenses: present (gacchati), imperfect45, aorist46 (agacchi, altern: agāma; agamī; agañchi;
garahi), perfect47, future (gacchissati), and conditional (agacchissa);
• causative (gamete; gacchāpeti);
• infinitive (gantuṃ; gamitum; gantave; gamanaye ) and gerund (gantvā);
• participles: present (gacchant; gacchamāna), past (gata) and future passive (gantabba);
• three moods: indicative (gacchati ), imperative (gaccha, 2.nd person) and optative
(gaccheyuṃ).
• three voices: active, reflective and passive voice;

https://host.pariyatti.org/plc/EngPaliG ... .audio.pdf
Whoa! Thanks so much for going through the trouble! You found a lot!

So, since the suttas say that vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined, not disjoined (MN 43), does that mean that vedayati is conjoined to sanna and vinnana as well?
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

zan
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by zan » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:53 pm

Volo wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:01 am
zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:29 am
Thanks! Do you know of a resource where this could be located? Like a word chart or something showing all the conjugations of it, or at least how they share a root?
Such things can usually be found in PED (Pali-English dictionary), which is available as Android app (search for Android tipitaka), as pdf file or online (for example from Sutta Central).

Vedayita is past participle:
PED wrote:Vedayita [pp. of vedeti] felt, experienced S i.112; ii.65; iii.46; A ii.198; iv.415; Vism 460.
Vedanā is a noun from the same root:
PED wrote:Vedanā (f.) [fr. ved˚;: see vedeti; cp. Epic Sk. vedanā] feeling, sensation [...]
Great, much appreciated!

So, since the suttas say that vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined, not disjoined (MN 43), does that mean that vedayati is conjoined to sanna and vinnana as well?
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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Volo
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Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by Volo » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:24 pm

zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:53 pm
So, since the suttas say that vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined, not disjoined (MN 43), does that mean that vedayati is conjoined to sanna and vinnana as well?
I'm not sure what do you mean by that, maybe you can clarify... But vedana is a noun, vedayati/vedeti is a verb.

zan
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by zan » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:49 pm

Volo wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:24 pm
zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:53 pm
So, since the suttas say that vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined, not disjoined (MN 43), does that mean that vedayati is conjoined to sanna and vinnana as well?
I'm not sure what do you mean by that, maybe you can clarify... But vedana is a noun, vedayati/vedeti is a verb.
MN 43 states that you cannot fully separate vedana, sanna and vinnana. So if someone is experiencing vedana, they also have sanna and vinnana. If someone is experiencing vedayati, do they also have sanna and vinnana?

If a sentence states that "a person vedayati/vedeti (felt) something", does that mean they also had sanna and vinnana, since vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined?
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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Volo
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Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by Volo » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:46 pm

zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:49 pm
If a sentence states that "a person vedayati/vedeti (felt) something", does that mean they also had sanna and vinnana, since vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined?
I would say "yes".

zan
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by zan » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:15 pm

Volo wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:46 pm
zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:49 pm
If a sentence states that "a person vedayati/vedeti (felt) something", does that mean they also had sanna and vinnana, since vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined?
I would say "yes".
Thanks!
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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DooDoot
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Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:43 pm

zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:51 pm
So, since the suttas say that vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined, not disjoined (MN 43), does that mean that vedayati is conjoined to sanna and vinnana as well?
Yes & no. When the mind has sanna & vinnana then vedana (the doer/noun) will also engage in vedayati (the doing/verb). However, sanna & vinnana do not engage in vedayati. Instead, sanna & vinnana respectively engage in saññāti & vijānāti. Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

zan
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by zan » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:56 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:43 pm
zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:51 pm
So, since the suttas say that vedana, sanna and vinnana are conjoined, not disjoined (MN 43), does that mean that vedayati is conjoined to sanna and vinnana as well?
Yes & no. When the mind has sanna & vinnana then vedana (the doer/noun) will also engage in vedayati (the doing/verb). However, sanna & vinnana do not engage in vedayati. Instead, sanna & vinnana respectively engage in saññāti & vijānāti. Regards :smile:
Thanks. So this is a grammar thing? But ultimately, a being utterly devoid of sanna and vinnana will not experience vedayati? Or the other way around, a being utterly devoid of the capacity to have vedayati (ex: one who had zero vedana because then they would have zero vedayati if I understand correctly?) would have to be said to also be without sanna and vinnana, because the three are conjoined?
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

User avatar
DooDoot
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Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:58 pm

zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:56 pm
Thanks. So this is a grammar thing? But ultimately, a being utterly devoid of sanna and vinnana will not experience vedayati? Or the other way around, a being utterly devoid of the capacity to have vedayati (ex: one who had zero vedana because then they would have zero vedayati if I understand correctly?) would have to be said to also be without sanna and vinnana, because the three are conjoined?
Yes; it appears so.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

zan
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Are vedana and vedayita two forms of the same word?

Post by zan » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:00 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:58 pm
zan wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:56 pm
Thanks. So this is a grammar thing? But ultimately, a being utterly devoid of sanna and vinnana will not experience vedayati? Or the other way around, a being utterly devoid of the capacity to have vedayati (ex: one who had zero vedana because then they would have zero vedayati if I understand correctly?) would have to be said to also be without sanna and vinnana, because the three are conjoined?
Yes; it appears so. For example, MN 111 describes the ending of feeling & perception, which also would be the ending of consciousness, as follows:
Thank you! What follows?
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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