vitakka synonym is saṅkappa?

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auto
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vitakka synonym is saṅkappa?

Post by auto » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:14 pm

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/saṅkappa
saṅkappaBuddhist Dictionary by NYANATILOKA MAHATHERA
saṅkappa:'thought',is a synonym of vitakka (q.v.).For sammā-s.,or right thought,s.magga (2).

saṅkappaConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
saṅkappa:[m.] intention; purpose.

saṅkappaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Saṅkappa,[saṁ+kḷp,cp.kappeti fig.meaning] thought,intention,purpose,plan D.III,215; S.II,143 sq.; A.I,281; II,36; Dh.74; Sn.154,1144; Nd1 616 (=vitakka ñāṇa paññā buddhi); Dhs.21; DhA.II,78.As equivalent of vitakka also at D.III,215; A.IV,385; Dhs.7.--kāma° a lustful thought A.III,259; V,31.paripuṇṇa° having one’s intentions fulfilled M.I,192; III,276; D.III,42; A.V,92,97 sq.; sara° memories & hopes M.I,453; S.IV,76; vyāpāda°,vihiṁsa°,malicious,cruel purposes,M.II,27 sq.; sammā° right thoughts or intentions,one of the aṅgas of the 8--fold Path (ariya-magga) Vin.I,10; D.II,312; A.III,140; VbhA.117.Saṅkappa is defd at DhsA.124 as (cetaso) abhiniropanā,i.e.application of the mind.See on term also Cpd.238.(Page 662)
equivalent of vitakka


saṅkhā
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/saṅkhā
saṅkhāPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Saṅkhā,(f.) & Saṅkhyā (f.) [fr.saṁ+khyā] 1.enumeration,calculation,estimating ..

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Re: vitakka synonym is saṅkappa?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:46 am

hi Auto

the words are used in two different contexts, here:
When someone has four qualities I describe him as a great man with great wisdom.

Catūhi kho ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, dhammehi samannāgataṃ mahāpaññaṃ mahāpurisaṃ paññāpemi.

What four?

Katamehi catūhi?

It’s when someone practices for the welfare and happiness of the people.

Idha, brāhmaṇa, bahujanahitāya paṭipanno hoti bahujanasukhāya;

They’ve established many people in the noble method, that is, the principles of goodness and skillfulness.

bahu’ssa janatā ariye ñāye patiṭṭhāpitā, yadidaṃ kalyāṇadhammatā kusaladhammatā.

They think what they want to think, and don’t think what they don’t want to think.

So yaṃ vitakkaṃ ākaṅkhati vitakketuṃ taṃ vitakkaṃ vitakketi, yaṃ vitakkaṃ nākaṅkhati vitakketuṃ na taṃ vitakkaṃ vitakketi;

They consider what they want to consider [intend: Bhikkhu Bodhi], and don’t consider what they don’t want to consider.

yaṃ saṅkappaṃ ākaṅkhati saṅkappetuṃ taṃ saṅkappaṃ saṅkappeti, yaṃ saṅkappaṃ nākaṅkhati saṅkappetuṃ na taṃ saṅkappaṃ saṅkappeti.

Thus they have achieved mental mastery of the paths of thought.

Iti cetovasippatto hoti vitakkapathe.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.35/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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auto
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Re: vitakka synonym is saṅkappa?

Post by auto » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:18 am

Ok, vitakka is just a thought what can be used also as someone is thinking.

when you add vicara it is vitakka vicara, what it means then?

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Re: vitakka synonym is saṅkappa?

Post by auto » Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:02 pm

https://suttacentral.net/sn1.34/en/sujato
“The world’s pretty things aren’t sensual pleasures.
“Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke,
Greedy intention is a person’s sensual pleasure.
Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo;
The world’s pretty things stay just as they are,
Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke,
but a wise one removes desire for them.
Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandaṃ.
saṅkappa here as intention.

https://suttacentral.net/kv8.4/en/aung-rhysdavids
“The manifold of objects in the world—
This in itself is not ‘desires of sense.’
Lustful intention is man’s sense-desires.
That manifold of objects doth endure;
The will thereto the wise exterminate”
Theravādin: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:
“There are these fivefold pleasures of sense, bhikkhus: which are the five? Objects desirable, … adapted to sense-desires (kāma), and seductive are cognizable by sight, hearing, etc. … five kinds of objects associated with sense-pleasure. Nevertheless, bhikkhus, these are not sense-desires; they are called in the Ariyan discipline objects of sense-pleasures (kāmaguṇa). For kāma is a man’s lustful intention.
kāma is persons saṅkapparāga

https://suttacentral.net/an9.41/en/sujato
And so, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
So kho ahaṃ, ānanda, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharāmi.
While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset me, and that was an affliction for me.
Tassa mayhaṃ, ānanda, iminā vihārena viharato kāmasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti. Svassa me hoti ābādho.
quite secluded from persons saṅkapparāga

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Re: vitakka synonym is saṅkappa?

Post by Zom » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:26 pm

Sankappa is inclination, intention; vitakka is just thinking. So, Samma Sankappa as a 2nd path factor is not just thinking, based on "non-sensuality" etc, but inclination to such states of mind and with such states of mind.

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Re: vitakka synonym is saṅkappa?

Post by auto » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:10 pm

Zom wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:26 pm
Sankappa is inclination, intention; vitakka is just thinking. So, Samma Sankappa as a 2nd path factor is not just thinking, based on "non-sensuality" etc, but inclination to such states of mind and with such states of mind.
Vitakka is translated as initial application, so it could suggest something what is there already. Like you were thinking of going to bathroom, so you can catch yourself from that thought.

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vitakka
vitakka四念住課程開示集要巴利語字匯(葛印卡)
vitakka: 最初的心專註(尋)、念頭的開端
https://translate.google.com
Zuìchū de xīn zhuānzhù - Initial heart focus

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/sucarita
sucaritaConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
sucarita:[nt.] right conduct.
and vi it means wrong or something like that. The vitakka refer to the wrong resolve or intent what is there.

*ps thanks pointing out that its the path factor.

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Re: vitakka synonym is saṅkappa?

Post by Zom » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:06 pm

Vitakka is translated as initial application, so it could suggest something what is there already. Like you were thinking of going to bathroom, so you can catch yourself from that thought.
It is translated (or better say interpreted) this way only in commentaries, and only in jhanic context. But in the suttas vitakka is just a thought.

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Re: vitakka synonym is saṅkappa?

Post by auto » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:17 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:06 pm
Vitakka is translated as initial application, so it could suggest something what is there already. Like you were thinking of going to bathroom, so you can catch yourself from that thought.
It is translated (or better say interpreted) this way only in commentaries, and only in jhanic context. But in the suttas vitakka is just a thought.
hmm

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/sujato
The Buddha said this: Bhagavā etadavoca:

“Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I thought:
“Pubbeva me, bhikkhave, sambodhā anabhisambuddhassa bodhisattasseva sato etadahosi:
‘Why don’t I meditate by continually dividing my thoughts into two classes?’
‘yannūnāhaṃ dvidhā katvā dvidhā katvā vitakke vihareyyan’ti.

So I assigned sensual, malicious, and cruel thoughts
So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, yo cāyaṃ kāmavitakko yo ca byāpādavitakko yo ca vihiṃsāvitakko—
to one class.
imaṃ ekaṃ bhāgamakāsiṃ;

And I assigned thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness
yo cāyaṃ nekkhammavitakko yo ca abyāpādavitakko yo ca avihiṃsāvitakko—
to the second class.
imaṃ dutiyaṃ bhāgamakāsiṃ.
...just thought but if to read next thing:
Whatever a mendicant frequently thinks about and considers becomes their heart’s inclination.
Yaññadeva, bhikkhave, bhikkhu bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicāreti, tathā tathā nati hoti cetaso.
jhanic context. That above notion of 'whatever a mendicant frequently...' is important since you need be mindful of that aspect,
In the same way I needed only to be mindful that Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satikaraṇīyameva ahosi: those things were there. ‘ete dhammā’ti.
then he said
My energy was roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness was established and lucid, my body was tranquil and undisturbed, and my mind was immersed in samādhi.
Āraddhaṃ kho pana me, bhikkhave, vīriyaṃ ahosi asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ.
aside from that i just get an idea why Sujato translates, vitakka vicara - while placing the 'mind' and keeping it connected
the 'mind' there is heart, cetaso.

it is that heart-mind what gets immersed.

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