MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

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MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by frank k » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:16 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... pali.html
pali grammar question:

For the 3rd jhana correction, where I replaced upekkha-sukha with sukha-kāyena, I suspect 'kāyena' is probably the wrong word. What should I be using?
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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:30 pm

MN 4 (stock description:
And with the fading away of rapture, I entered and remained in the third absorption, where I meditated with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’

Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca vihāsiṃ, sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedesiṃ; yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihāsiṃ.
MN 138:
Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’

Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
It appears "sukhañca kāyena" is a stock term, with at least 21 search results.
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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:31 am

.



Thanks a lot for bringing this sutta up to my attention because this and some other readings recently further strengthens my faith in Pali scriptures of Buddha Dhamma maintained by millenna long generations of monks; and, awe-struck by how subtle and great the nature of Pali, Dhamma and the minds who preserved them.

Some preserved Pali Scriptures along without knowing the essence very much. Some preserved it along trying to understand, by increaseing their wisdom. Some preserved it along, yet trying to make weird interpretations to suit the teachings manageable for their low level of wisdom. I more or less thank all them just for preserving the Pali Scriptures.





But, notesonthedhamma is a different matter, at various levels.

A few examples:
  • Trying to change & bring down the Pali to be manageable for low wisdom.
  • Wisdom not mature & broad enough to cope with the subtleties in Pali, and in combination with neologism-ish symbols and neologism-ish phrases for Buddhism, resulting in tarnishing EBT itself and attacking other EBT giants for not understanding or accepting these peculiar views and explanations.
  • Setting up an insufficient theory out of specific pieces of Pali Scriptures, drawing personal conclusions, attacking back Pali Scriptures itself with that personal conclusions.
  • Fundamentally flawed [all alone by itself]***




Notesonthedhamma [and the related] is Fundamentally flawed [all alone by itself]***
  • On searching the phrase "flesh and blood anatomical body"
    The whole internet returns results not even up to two digits.
    As of now:
    • Google: only 8 results [2 not Dhamma related] All the others related to OP
    • Yahoo: only 5 results [1 not Dhamma related] All the others related to OP
    • Bing: only 2 results; both related to OP
    This shows that OP created neologism-ish phrases to Pali world, in the attempt to change Pali Scriptures, with deleterious [knowingly or unknowingly] consequences, when considering from other various aspects.




Fundamentally flawed *** [continued]
  • No human being can ever know "flesh and blood anatomical body" directly. To re-state, from previous post:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:40 pm
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:57 pm
...
...
The reason late Abhidhamma tries to do that, it's part of their overall program to make the physical body dissappear from the 4 jhanas ---
...
...


umm, "physical body" and jhanas and Abhiddhama...



Let alone jhanas (semen retentive or taoism-ish or whatever).
  • No human can ever directly know/cognize one's own "raw" physical body. As far as the consciousness [of any genuine kind] is concerned, there is no unprocessed (raw) physical body.
  • Yes.
    • There's no unprocessed (raw) physical body, dhamma-wise as well as Dhamma-wise, and neuroscience-wise.
    • Every cognized "physical body" is already a processed one and it is already a dhamma / or dhammas.
  • Even neuroscientists know that, let alone great minds of Abhidhamma.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5217302381#!
Our experience of the body is not direct; rather, it is mediated by perceptual information, influenced by internal information, and recalibrated through stored implicit and explicit body representation (body memory).
...
...
...
My impression:
  • Notesondhamma (and the related) is, as of now, more like tarnishing genuine EBT, rather than polishing it. Yet, I feel that it still has some potential to contribute positively (for EBT in particular, and for Buddhism in general) if bridled the right way. However, naturally, not everyone is going to be mature enough to be worthy of the right way.
And, still, I genuinely wish the notesondhamma (and the related) to be worthy of contributing to pristine EBT, if at all possible, as soon as possible.

Bests,
...




  • "Kaya" is way much more than "flesh and blood anatomical body."
    • And, many understand, know, realize, feel and breathe that, Dhamma-wise.




My suggestion for the OP is:
  • please do the homework thoroughly,
  • learn how not to confuse various religions & pholosophies,
  • master the basics and familarize oneself with tools of the trade, before inventing new "theories" and rewriting the Book.





.
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:45 am

Yes, ‘Kayena’ does not necessarily mean physical body.
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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by Volo » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:23 am

Buddha called pleasure felt by the physical body a "sensual pleasure", it is different from a more sublime jhāna pleasure:
SN 36.19 wrote:Ānanda, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. Sounds cognizable by the ear … Odours cognizable by the nose … Tastes cognizable by the tongue … Tactile objects cognizable by the body that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. The pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on these five cords of sensual pleasure: this is called sensual pleasure.

“Though some may say, ‘This is the supreme pleasure and joy that beings experience,’ I would not concede this to them. Why is that? Because there is another kind of happiness more excellent and sublime than that happiness. And what is that other kind of happiness? Here, Ānanda, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. This is that other kind of happiness more excellent and sublime than the previous kind of happiness.

[Similarly for the other jhānas, arūpa attainments and cessation attainment]

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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by frank k » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:17 am

I usually translate kāya as "body", same as most translators. And in STED 3rd jhana formula I also translate it as 'body'.
Here in MN 138, I've used 'physical' just for emphasis, to counter B. Sujato's extremely wrong translation/interpretation of his STED 3rd jhana "personally experiences sukha".

Read the Vedana Samyutta carefully. The 3 vedanas originate primarily from the kāya. 3rd jhana's "sukha kayena" is to emphasize it's the sukha-indriya, the physical bodily sensation that it's talking about, and not the potential somanassa indriya implied by a more open 'sukha vedana'. B Sujato uses pali grammar trickery to make the kaya disappear in 3rd jhana.

The physical body [kaya] experiencing 3 vedana does not define it as kāma (sensuality). What makes it kāma is one's desire for the 5 cords of sensuality, not the cords themselves, nor the physical apparatus attached to the cords, nor the external objects.
Volo wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:23 am
Buddha called pleasure felt by the physical body a "sensual pleasure", it is different from a more sublime jhāna pleasure:
SN 36.19 wrote:Ānanda, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. Sounds cognizable by the ear … Odours cognizable by the nose … Tastes cognizable by the tongue … Tactile objects cognizable by the body that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. The pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on these five cords of sensual pleasure: this is called sensual pleasure.

“Though some may say, ‘This is the supreme pleasure and joy that beings experience,’ I would not concede this to them. Why is that? Because there is another kind of happiness more excellent and sublime than that happiness. And what is that other kind of happiness? Here, Ānanda, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. This is that other kind of happiness more excellent and sublime than the previous kind of happiness.

[Similarly for the other jhānas, arūpa attainments and cessation attainment]
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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by Volo » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:35 am

frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:17 am
Read the Vedana Samyutta carefully. The 3 vedanas originate primarily from the kāya. 3rd jhana's "sukha kayena" is to emphasize it's the sukha-indriya, the physical bodily sensation that it's talking about, and not the potential somanassa indriya implied by a more open 'sukha vedana'. B Sujato uses pali grammar trickery to make the kaya disappear in 3rd jhana.

The physical body [kaya] experiencing 3 vedana does not define it as kāma (sensuality). What makes it kāma is one's desire for the 5 cords of sensuality, not the cords themselves, nor the physical apparatus attached to the cords, nor the external objects.
If you provide relevant quotes, we can discuss. Also, kāya in Pali doesn't always means physical body (relevant examples for such use can be found in PED under "kāya").
Last edited by Volo on Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:28 am

frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:17 am
I usually translate kāya as "body", same as most translators. And in STED 3rd jhana formula I also translate it as 'body'. Here in MN 138, I've used 'physical' just for emphasis, to counter B. Sujato's extremely wrong translation/interpretation of his STED 3rd jhana "personally experiences sukha".
I B Horner translated similar to Sujato, as follows:
Horner wrote: (3) By the fading out of rapture, I dwelt with equanimity, attentive, and clearly conscious; and I experienced in my person that joy of which the ariyans say: ‘Joyful lives he who has equanimity and is mindful,’ and I entered into and abided in the third meditation.

https://suttacentral.net/mn4/en/horner
Volo wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:35 am
... please answer my question below...
The above said, since the word "kayena" appears to be "instrumental case", I am not sure how Horner could translate it as: "in my person"; nor Sujato's "personally experiencing"? :shrug:
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:17 am
Read the Vedana Samyutta carefully.
Sorry but, to be polite, you should to carefully quote specific suttas.
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:17 am
The 3 vedanas originate primarily from the kāya. 3rd jhana's "sukha kayena" is to emphasize it's the sukha-indriya, the physical bodily sensation that it's talking about, and not the potential somanassa indriya implied by a more open 'sukha vedana'. B Sujato uses pali grammar trickery to make the kaya disappear in 3rd jhana.
I think you might be getting tangled in Pali words above.

1. When feelings are ordinarily classified in 3 ways, all pleasant feelings are called "sukha", regardless of their physical or mental origin, as follows from SN 36.22:
And what are the three feelings?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, tisso vedanā?

Pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings. …
Sukhā vedanā, dukkhā vedanā, adukkhamasukhā vedanā—


https://suttacentral.net/sn36.22/en/sujato
2. It is only when the (Abhidhammic ??) two feeling & five feeling classification occurs, is "sukha" physical, as follows:
And what are the two feelings?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, dve vedanā?

Physical and mental.
Kāyikā ca cetasikā ca—

And what are the five feelings?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, pañca vedanā?

The faculties of pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness, and equanimity. …
Sukhindriyaṃ, dukkhindriyaṃ, somanassindriyaṃ, domanassindriyaṃ, upekkhindriyaṃ—


https://suttacentral.net/sn36.22/en/sujato
3. Therefore, i think it is improper to impute what is possibly a later Abhidhamma framework upon older suttas, such as the stock description of the jhanas found in MN 4.

4. Regardless of the above, suttas such as SN 48.40 appear to not support your point of view and the generalization you made about 'sukha', as follows:
It’s when, with the fading away of rapture, a mendicant enters and remains in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,

That’s where the faculty of pleasure that’s arisen ceases without anything left over.

ettha cuppannaṃ sukhindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati.

It’s when, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṃ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṃ catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati,

That’s where the faculty of happiness that’s arisen ceases without anything left over.

ettha cuppannaṃ somanassindriyaṃ aparisesaṃ nirujjhati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.40/en/sujato
5. In conclusion, SN 48.40 appears to:

(a) Equate jhana rapture (piti) with sukhindriyaṃ. It says sukhindriyaṃ ceases in the 3rd jhana with the fading away of rapture but with the maintenance & experiencing of "sukha".

(b) Equate jhana happiness (sukha) with somanassindriyaṃ.

6. It follows your insistence the phrase "sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedesiṃ" refers to "physical sukha" appears to be spurious.

7. Since the word "sukhañca" in the stock phrase definitely appears to not refer to physical feelings (since SN 48.40 unambiguously appears to say "sukhañca" is "somanassindriyaṃ"), it would be illogical for "kāyena" to refer to the body sense organ (kāyāyatanaṃ).

8. Instead, it appears logical "kāyena" refers to the totally of the "group" of aggregates that remain functioning in the 3rd jhana. Thus the consciousness aggregate, plus perception aggregate, plus feeling aggregate, plus sankhara aggregate in respect to "mano" or the accumulation of wisdom, would experience the 3rd jhana fully and intimately.

9. My last point appears supported by AN 7.44, which says about the 3rd jhana: "There are beings that are unified in body and unified in perception, such as the gods replete with glory. This is the fourth plane of consciousness". Here, the totality of the kaya (group) is unified in experiencing one primary object, namely, sukha.

:smile:
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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by Volo » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:56 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:28 am
The above said, since the word "kayena" appears to be "instrumental case", I am not sure how Horner could translate it as: "in my person"; nor Sujato's "personally experiencing"?
Ins is often used adverbially (or can be translated in English this way: e.g. santena calmly). But Ven Sujato would need to provide some examples, where kāya was used meaning "person" to support his translation.

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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:46 pm

Volo wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:56 pm
Ins is often used adverbially (or can be translated in English this way: e.g. santena calmly).
Thank you Volo.
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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:52 am

Volo wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:56 pm
But Ven Sujato would need to provide some examples, where kāya was used meaning "person" to support his translation.
As far as I know, in the commentaries kāyena is never glossed as purisena, puggalena, attabhāvena or anything else to this effect.

The places where Ven. Sujāto translates kāyena as "personally" seem to be those where the commentary gives the gloss sahajāta-nāmakāyena ("with the conascent mental body") or simply nāmakāyena.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Re: MN 138 upekkha-sukha error in pali CST4 source, should correction be sukha-kāyena, or sukha-kayassa?

Post by frank k » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:44 pm

SN 48.40 (S V 213) is a corrupt sutta
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... utta.html

It's such a contradictory unusable mess that not even Ajahn Brahm and B. Sujato (who also try to redefine EBT jhana into Vism. redefinition of Jhana, minus the Abhidhamma underlying theory) rely on that sutta as evidence.

SN 36 Vedana samyutta,
suttas using 3 fold vedana scheme where anatomical body is the cause of vedana
sutta #4, 6, 7, 12, 13
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