What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

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DooDoot
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:14 am

Nicolas wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:17 pm
That's not relevant. The fact that it's in the section about eternalism doesn't put into doubt the recollection of past abodes.
To me, it is relevant. DN 1 appears to describe a mode of interpretation, similar to yours, where recollections of past abodes are viewed as "my past" or "my personal past lives". Where as SN 22.79 appears to describe a Buddhist mode of interpretation, where recollections of past abodes are viewed as "mere aggregates" previously ignorantly clung to as self.

The DN 1 interpretation, similar to yours, appears to nurture eternalist self-view. Where as the SN 22.79 interpretation discerns the arising of becoming & identity-birth in Dependent Origination.

Also, keep in mind, SN 22.79 refers to a possible recollection of merely one aggregate. I doubt there can be a past life comprised of merely one aggregate.

Regardless, I adhere to SN 22.79 because it appears to be the only sutta unambiguously describing & explaining what recollection of past abodes means. All of the others appear to only offer non-explanatory words which are interpreted by the very fertile imaginations of scholars & readers. Bhikkhu Sujato recently said:
However, it seems implausible, following from what I call the “principle of least meaning”. This principle derives from the fact that texts, especially ancient sacred texts, tend to be over-interpreted. We read all kinds of complex implications and insinuations into things. To counteract this, it is best to translate something in the simplest and plainest, most obvious meaning.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/dh ... 20/13601/8
SN 22.79 is an example of a text with the simplest and plainest, most obvious meaning. Where as the texts you cite appear as examples of: "We read all kinds of complex implications and insinuations into things".
Nicolas wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:17 pm
I don't see why "kappa" in DN 16 should refer to a vague "length of time" vs. an "eon". I don't exclude the possibility, though.
So above appears to be saying you entertain the Mahayana idea that the Buddha said to Ananda he could continue to be reincarnated, personally, as a fixed personal same entity, until he saves all sentient beings? Then at the very end, after billions of same-entity lifetimes, after 100% of sentient beings are saved, at the last moment, they all abandon the last self-view for Arahantship?
Nicolas wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:17 pm
Either way, the fact that the Buddha, through use of supernormal power, could extend his lifespan for a "kappa" or the remainder of a "kappa" likely means that he would be extending his life beyond a normal lifespan (and therefore, recollecting past abodes for many kappas likely means recollecting past abodes before one's physical birth).
The word used in recollecting past nivasa is "jatiyo". Per the dictionary, it does not appear to mean "physical births" but means a "class" or "lineage". I trust we have discussed before the Pali seems to only support the interpretation that "jati" ("production of beings": "sattānaṃ abhinibbatti") in Dependent Origination refers to something mental rather than physical because suttas such as SN 23.2 and SN 5.10 define "a being" ("satta") as something mental or merely a "view".
Nicolas wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:17 pm
I speculate that "kappa" as in "eon" is the more common meaning in the suttas. Example: SN 15.5, or AN 4.123 which reads: "The lifespan of the gods of Brahma’s Host is one eon" (whereas other suttas list the lifespan of devas in rupaloka to be millions of years).
Interesting how both Eternalism and Brahmanism is attractive to some. I recall the Dhamma Refuge is defined as visible here-&-now, inviting inspection, immediately effective, leading onwards (to peace), etc.
Nicolas wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:17 pm
What do you think saṃvaṭṭakappe, vivaṭṭakappe, and saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe mean?
I must research this. But SN 22.99 might be a starting point:
Suppose a dog on a leash was tethered to a strong post or pillar. It would just keep running and circling around that post or pillar.

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, sā gaddulabaddho daḷhe khīle vā thambhe vā upanibaddho tameva khīlaṃ vā thambhaṃ vā anuparidhāvati anuparivattati;

In the same way, take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in their teaching. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in their teaching.

evameva kho, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṃ adassāvī … pe …

They regard form …

sappurisadhamme avinīto rūpaṃ attato samanupassati … pe …

feeling …

vedanaṃ attato samanupassati …

perception …

saññaṃ attato samanupassati …

choices …

saṅkhāre attato samanupassati …

consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness.

viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati, viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ; attani vā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.

They just keep running and circling around form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.

So rūpaññeva anuparidhāvati anuparivattati, vedanaññeva … pe … saññaññeva … saṅkhāreyeva … viññāṇaññeva anuparidhāvati anuparivattati.

Doing so, they’re not freed from form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. They’re not freed from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.

So rūpaṃ anuparidhāvaṃ anuparivattaṃ, vedanaṃ … pe … saññaṃ … saṅkhāre … viññāṇaṃ anuparidhāvaṃ anuparivattaṃ, na parimuccati rūpamhā, na parimuccati vedanāya, na parimuccati saññāya, na parimuccati saṅkhārehi, na parimuccati viññāṇamhā, na parimuccati jātiyā jarāmaraṇena sokehi paridevehi dukkhehi domanassehi upāyāsehi.

They’re not freed from suffering, I say.

‘Na parimuccati dukkhasmā’ti vadāmi.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.99/en/sujato


anuparivattati
anu + pari + vat + a
anu + pari + vṛt
move round and round; keep on rolling.

saṃvaṭṭa
“rolling on or forward”
saṃ + vaṭṭa

vivaṭṭa
“rolling back,”
vi + vaṭṭa

vaṭṭa
circular; round
“rolling on”
pp. of vṛt, Sk. vṛtta in meaning of “round” as well as “happened, become” etc.

https://suttacentral.net/define/anuparivattati
https://suttacentral.net/define/va%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADa
:candle:
Nicolas wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:17 pm
Let's take a look at Iti 22. The Pali reads "Satta vassāni mettacittaṃ bhāvetvā satta saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe nayimaṃ lokaṃ punarāgamāsiṃ. Saṃvaṭṭamāne sudaṃ, bhikkhave, kappe ābhassarūpago homi; vivaṭṭamāne kappe suññaṃ brahmavimānaṃ upapajjāmi."
... which John D. Ireland translates as:
"Having cultivated for seven years a mind of loving-kindness, for seven aeons of contraction and expansion I did not return to this world. Whenever the aeon contracted I reached the plane of Streaming Radiance, and when the aeon expanded I arose in an empty Brahma-mansion."
... and Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates it as:
"Having developed a mind of good will for seven years, then for seven eons of contraction & expansion I didn’t return to this world. Whenever the eon was contracting, I entered the [realm of] Radiance. Whenever the eon was expanding, I reappeared in an empty Brahma-abode."

It seems pretty clear to me that the "saṃvaṭṭavivaṭṭakappe" referred to, both here and in the stock phrase we have been referring to, refers to a specific and long length of time, something clearly longer than a human lifespan.

Also, since we're off-topic, I invite the moderators to move our messages to a new topic.
The plane of Streaming Radiance appears to be the 2nd or 3rd jhana (which ever; AN 4.123; MN 1; etc). MN 79 says jhana is a "world" ("loka") of exclusively pleasant feelings:
“Well sir, what is that grounded path for realizing a world of perfect happiness?”

“Katamā pana sā, bhante, ākāravatī paṭipadā ekantasukhassa lokassa sacchikiriyāyā”ti?

“It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption.

“Idhudāyi, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati;

As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption.

vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā … pe … dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati;

With the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption.

pītiyā ca virāgā … pe … tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati—

This is the grounded path for realizing a world of perfect happiness.”

ayaṃ kho sā, udāyi, ākāravatī paṭipadā ekantasukhassa lokassa sacchikiriyāyā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn79/en/sujato
AN 4.45, SN 12.44; etc, appear to say "the world" or "worlds" arise & cease within this 6 foot body that includes perception & thought.

Regards :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:27 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:21 am

DooDoot wrote: I recall the Dhamma Refuge is defined as visible here-&-now, inviting inspection, immediately effective, leading onwards (to peace), etc.
Buddhism isn't materialism

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:39 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:21 am
Buddhism isn't materialism
Yes, I agree. My post above distinguishes between materialistic & non-materialistic interpretations.

For example, the common views that "nivasa", "jati", "loka", "saṃvaṭṭa", "vivaṭṭa" , etc, pertain to physical things appears to be an example of materialistic thinking or materialism.

So returning to topic, when the definitions of Once-Returner & Non-Returner use the word "world" or "loka", in the view of materialism, this would mean another planet or lifetime.
In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who, with the ending of the five lower fetters are reborn spontaneously. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.

In this Saṅgha there are mendicants who, with the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, are once-returners. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering.
But in the interpretation of non-materialism, a "world" is a mental state and the two worlds above are: (i) a world without five lower fetters; and (ii) a world with greed, hate, and delusion.

Regards :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:40 am

the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.

as in . . . no rebirth, no afterlife
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:41 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:40 am
the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.
The above appears not a Buddhist idea but an idea from Western philosophy. It seems the Buddha never ever used a Pali word that equates to the Western philosophical concept of "materialism".

:focus:
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:42 am

Buddhism teaches rebirth, the afterlife

right view is acceptance of this

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:46 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:40 am
as in . . . no rebirth, no afterlife
Again, the above is just personal interpretation of words. For example, there is the common phrase in the sutta:
imañca lokaṃ parañca lokaṃ

this world the other world
Since in AN 4.45, SN 12.44, MN 79, etc, the Buddha said "the world" or "worlds" arise & cease within this six foot long body, including perception & mind, the common idea that parañca lokaṃ means "next world" or "afterlife" appears to be only a personal interpretation.

:focus:
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by DooDoot » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:48 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:42 am
Buddhism teaches rebirth, the afterlife
There appears to be no single actual Pali word that literally means "rebirth" in terms of "afterlife".
cappuccino wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:42 am
right view is acceptance of this
Actually, it is not Noble Right View. Refer to MN 117. Keep in mind this is Pali sub-forum rather than personal ideas sub-forum

:focus:
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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:02 am

"Now when the disciple of the noble ones has arrived at this purity of equanimity & mindfulness, he recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
Potaliya Sutta: To Potaliya

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by cappuccino » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:04 am

"Yes, friends. As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."

"Don't say that, friend Yamaka. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"
Yamaka Sutta: To Yamaka

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Re: What exactly does the Pali term "parinibbāyino" mean ????

Post by sentinel » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:47 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:48 am
Dependent Origination refers to something mental rather than physical
Not quite . Namarupa , rupa ain't mental .
Six sense base ain't mental either .
:coffee:

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