Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???

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DooDoot
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Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:06 am

Dear Pali gurus

Iti 98 says:
Bhikkhus, one bound by the bond of sensual desire and by the bond of being is a returner, one who comes back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire but still bound by the bond of being is a non-returner, one who does not come back to this state. One freed from the bond of sensual desire and freed from the bond of being is an arahant, one in whom the taints are destroyed.
Ever since reading Iti 98, I have doubted sakadāgāmī means "once returner" but, instead, sensed sakadāgāmī might mean "ocassional returner" or "infrequent returner" or, alternatively, "one-last-world(liness)-returner" or something.

The dictionary provides the following about sakadāgāmī" ("once-returner"):
Sakid & Sakiṃ
adverb
once.

1. sakiṃ: DN.ii.188; Ja.i.397; Dhp-a.iii.116 (sakiṃvijātā itthi primipara); once more: Mil.238; once for all: Thig.466; Dhp-a.ii.44; Thag-a.284

2. sakid (in composition see also sakad -āgāmin): in sakid eva once only AN.ii.238 AN.iv.380; Pp.16; Pv-a.243; at once Vin.i.31.

fr. sa˚ = saṃ
āgāmī
adjective
coming; one who comes.
Researching the word 'sakiṃ', I found the following sutta translations:
After giving birth just once,
Appekaccā sakiṃ vijātāyo.

some women even cut their own throat,
Galake api kantanti,

while refined ladies take poison.
Sukhumāliniyo visāni khādanti;

https://suttacentral.net/thig10.1/en/sujato
Mendicants, suppose a person was to throw a yoke with a single hole into the ocean. And there was a one-eyed turtle who popped up once every hundred years.

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, puriso mahāsamudde ekacchiggaḷaṃ yugaṃ pakkhipeyya. Tatrāpissa kāṇo kacchapo. So vassasatassa vassasatassa accayena sakiṃ sakiṃ ummujjeyya.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/sujato
“Suppose there was a huge stone mountain, a league long, a league wide, and a league high, with no cracks or holes, one solid mass.

“Seyyathāpi, bhikkhu, mahāselo pabbato yojanaṃ āyāmena yojanaṃ vitthārena yojanaṃ ubbedhena acchinno asusiro ekagghano.

And as each century passed someone would stroke it [once: Bhikkhu Bodhi) with a fine cloth from Kāsī.

Tamenaṃ puriso vassasatassa vassasatassa accayena kāsikena vatthena sakiṃ sakiṃ parimajjeyya.

By this means the huge stone mountain would be worn away before the eon comes to an end.

Khippataraṃ kho so, bhikkhu, mahāselo pabbato iminā upakkamena parikkhayaṃ pariyādānaṃ gaccheyya, na tveva kappo.

https://suttacentral.net/sn15.5/en/sujato
Transmigrating, I went to hell,
Saṃsaraṃ hi nirayaṃ agacchissaṃ,

and to the ghost realm time and again.
Petalokamagamaṃ punappunaṃ;

Many times I dwelt long
Dukkhamamhipi tiracchānayoniyaṃ,

in the animal realm, so full of pain.
Nekadhā hi vusitaṃ ciraṃ mayā.

I was also reborn as a human,
Mānusopi ca bhavobhirādhito,

and from time to time I went to heaven.
Saggakāyamagamaṃ sakiṃ sakiṃ;

https://suttacentral.net/thag3.14/en/sujato

Same in: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Bhikkhu Sujato's translation in Thag 3.14 of 'sakim sakim' as 'time to time' appears to support my speculations about an alternate translation of "sakadāgāmī".

One interesting sutta is AN 7.15, which says:
“Mendicants, these seven people found in the world are like those in water.
“Sattime, bhikkhave, udakūpamā puggalā santo saṃvijjamānā lokasmiṃ.

What seven?
Katame satta?

One person sinks under once and stays under.
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sakiṃ nimuggo nimuggova hoti;

It’s the kind of person who has exclusively dark, unskillful qualities.
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo samannāgato hoti ekantakāḷakehi akusalehi dhammehi.

.....

And what kind of person rises up then crosses over? It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities.’

With the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, they’re a once-returner. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering. So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī hoti, sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.

.....

And what kind of person has risen up, crossed over, and gone beyond, a brahmin who stands on the shore? It’s the kind of person who, rising up, thinks: ‘It’s good to have faith, conscience, prudence, energy, and wisdom regarding skillful qualities.’ They realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements.

https://suttacentral.net/an7.15/en/sujato
Researching to the word 'sakid', I found nothing, apart from in "sakideva" in the stock definition of "sakadāgāmī". The dictionary appears to say the term "sakadāgāmī" is derived from "sakid".

OK. What do we think in our educated opinion? Based on Bhikkhu Sujato's translations of "sakim sakim" in Thag 3.14 as "time to time", can the term "sakadāgāmī" mean "time to time returner" to sensuality (per Iti 96) after crossing over to the other shore (per AN 7.15)?

Thanks :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:56 am, edited 4 times in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???

Post by cappuccino » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:28 am

DooDoot wrote: can the term "sakadāgāmī" mean "time to time returner" to sensuality after crossing over to the other shore?
they've not yet crossed to the other shore……
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:42 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:36 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:28 am
"once-returner" isn't (yet) on the other shore
Maybe you are correct above ("for once": "sakim" :D ) and I misread the sutta (for once). Yes, AN 7.15 appears to say:

1. The once-returner rises up, which is the "ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion".

2. Crosses over, which is the "come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering".

The above said, the word "lokaṃ" ("world") generally does not mean the "Planet Earth", as the materialists believe it is.

Also, keep in mind, in the suttas, it seems the once-returners "upapajjati" to heaven.
One person rises up then crosses over.
idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ummujjitvā patarati;

AN 7.15
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???

Post by cappuccino » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:50 am

Loka ?

I don't think the other planets are wasted
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Volo
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Re: Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???

Post by Volo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:50 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:06 am
OK. What do we think in our educated opinion? Based on Bhikkhu Sujato's translations of "sakim sakim" in Thag 3.14 as "time to time", can the term "sakadāgāmī" mean "time to time returner" to sensuality (per Iti 96) after crossing over to the other shore (per AN 7.15)?
Ven Sujato translated sakim this way due to its repetition: "once and once":
To express plurality, totality, distribution, variety, multiplicity, etc., words are sometimes repeated: tesu tesu ṭhānesu in various places, in this and places; taṃ taṃ kathaya mānā saying this and this. yo thus repeated means "whoever, whatever, whichever": yaṃ yaṃ gāmaṃ whatever village; yena kena by whatever; ubbahīyati so so every one is put to flight.

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Re: Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:57 am

Volo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:50 am
Ven Sujato [and Thanissaro] translated sakim this way due to its repetition: "once and once":
Sure. Thanks. But 'sakim sakim' was not translated "once and once" in SN 56.47 & SN 15.15. Regardless, Vens Sujato & Thanissaro did not translate as "once & once" but as "time to time".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???

Post by Volo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:57 am
Sure. Thanks. But 'sakim sakim' was not translated "once and once" in SN 56.47 & SN 15.15. Regardless, Vens Sujato & Thanissaro did not translate as "once & once" but as "time to time".
Because "once and once" sounds weird in English. If sakad would be also repeated twice in sakadāgāmī, then "occasional returner" would be justified.

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Re: Does "sakadāgāmī" really mean "once-returner" ???

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:09 am

Volo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:22 am
Because "once and once" sounds weird in English. If sakad would be also repeated twice in sakadāgāmī, then "occasional returner" would be justified.
Thanks Volo. While doing my aqua therapy, I decided to abandon (for now) this line of investigation and purse investigating the definition of Non-Returner. I have an idea of what 'once-returner' might mean thus will wait until later. I am attempting a Frank K Revolutionary Theory of the Four Stages of Enlightenment. :mrgreen:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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