manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

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frank k
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Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

Post by frank k » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:07 pm

It's hard to know whether you genuinely don't understand. It looks like you're just playing word games trying to give an appearance of 'winning' an internet discussion.

On the off chance you really don't understand my explanation, look at MN 20.
http://lucid24.org/mn/mn020/toc-addon/index.html

I broke it down in pali+english, table of contents, subheadings, really easy to follow.
In contrast to the 5 methods on there to stop vitakka, the first two methods are the ones that are used the most by meditators the most, and they involve using skillful thinking to remove unskillful thinking. Whereas breath meditation need not use thinking at all to remove thinking. That's why it's particularly useful for that.

This has nothing to do with whether breath meditation needs thinking in first jhana, or must skip directly to second jhana, or whatever other kind of cart behind the horse argument you're shooting for.
Volo wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:46 pm
frank k wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:29 pm
The reason breath meditation is mentioned in particular, is because it need not involve any thinking (for a learner mentally reciting instruction words) once one becomes competent or at least familiar from practice with the instructions. This is in contrast with the meditations such as metta, brahmaviharas, 31 body parts, dukkha, anicca, nirodha, etc, that do involve more mental processing/cogitation.

Just like learning a new physical skill, like juggling, riding a bike, walking on a tightrope, is challenging enough to drive out any irrelevant vitakka/thoughts. You have to completely be in samadhi of what's happening with your body or you lose your balance, fall and experience great pain. There's no room or time for extraneous thinking. Similarly, breath meditation done properly fills the entire bandwidth of your attention with pleasant tactile breath sensations.
So, at the beginning you said that ānāpānasati for cutting off vitakka is referring to the 2nd jhāna. I replied that any second jhāna is without vitakka. About what stage are you taking now? Is it when the meditator is attempting to attain the first jhāna or when he attained it? If you are talking about preliminary stage (before 1st jhāna) then it is nonsense: the yogi cut vitakka on preliminary stage, and at the first jhāna vitakka is back! If you are talking about a person who is in the first ānāpānasati jhāna in contrast to, say, 1st metta jhāna, then again it doesn't make sense, because there's no cutting off vitakka in the first ānāpānasati jhāna by definition. Please clarify.
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Volo
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Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

Post by Volo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:16 am

frank k wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:07 pm
It's hard to know whether you genuinely don't understand. It looks like you're just playing word games trying to give an appearance of 'winning' an internet discussion.

On the off chance you really don't understand my explanation, look at MN 20.
http://lucid24.org/mn/mn020/toc-addon/index.html

I broke it down in pali+english, table of contents, subheadings, really easy to follow.
I have already asked you not to refer to your blog - I'm not going to read it. I formulated my points in just a few sentences, and want to get similar concise and clear answer. If your blog contains the answer, just paste it here.

frank k
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Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

Post by frank k » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:45 pm

I did summarize the point concisely already. You can read MN 20 from a source of your choosing on your own, I'm not going to summarize that sutta for you. The problem is your thought process is inverted. You're starting off assuming V&V must be different in 2nd jhana, and then looking to do awkaward interpretations to make the evidence fit your biased belief. Yes, some words like 'dhamma' and 'sankhara' are complicated and have multiple meanings. vitakka is not one of them. The proper procedure is you first assume it means the same thing everywhere, and only propose alternate meanings if it doesn't fit.

It doesn't look like you read the vaca simile earlier in this thread. I'll cut and paste for your convenience. If you understand the false equivalence fallacy, then you will understand the V&V problem with Sujato and Vism redefinition of V&V.
Example: If I were to translate vācā (vocalized speech) as "placing sound waves and connecting it to the listener's eardrum", that is extremely, extraordinarily wrong and destroys the meaning of the suttas. Even though that translation is partially correct, partially describing what happens with 'speech', it's missing the most important part of 'speech', the communicable ideas with meaning. 'Speech' isn't just any sound waves connecting with the ear drum, it's sounds in the form of language with communicable meaning.

Volo wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:16 am
frank k wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:07 pm
It's hard to know whether you genuinely don't understand. It looks like you're just playing word games trying to give an appearance of 'winning' an internet discussion.

On the off chance you really don't understand my explanation, look at MN 20.
http://lucid24.org/mn/mn020/toc-addon/index.html

I broke it down in pali+english, table of contents, subheadings, really easy to follow.
I have already asked you not to refer to your blog - I'm not going to read it. I formulated my points in just a few sentences, and want to get similar concise and clear answer. If your blog contains the answer, just paste it here.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

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Volo
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Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

Post by Volo » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:42 pm

frank k wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:45 pm
I did summarize the point concisely already. You can read MN 20 from a source of your choosing on your own, I'm not going to summarize that sutta for you.
Yeah, how innovative...
You're starting off assuming V&V must be different in 2nd jhana, and then looking to do awkaward interpretations to make the evidence fit your biased belief.
There is no vitakka and vicāra in the second jhāna.
Yes, some words like 'dhamma' and 'sankhara' are complicated and have multiple meanings. vitakka is not one of them.
Why? I'm interested only in arguments.
The proper procedure is you first assume it means the same thing everywhere, and only propose alternate meanings if it doesn't fit.
So, you acknowledge there is "alternate meanings"?
It doesn't look like you read the vaca simile earlier in this thread. I'll cut and paste for your convenience.
Would be better if you would cut and paste quotes from the suttas, which support your ideas.

frank k
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Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

Post by frank k » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:18 pm

Volo wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:42 pm
...
This discussion is over. Don't you have a job or something productive to do?
You obviously just want to troll and win arguments. You win. I concede.
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Volo
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Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

Post by Volo » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:24 am

frank k wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:18 pm
This discussion is over. Don't you have a job or something productive to do?
You obviously just want to troll and win arguments. You win. I concede.
What I'm trying to do is to show you that what you think is so perfectly thought out has its inconsistencies. I'm not expecting to convince you, but at least I hope you would change your categorical and abusive tone when talking about commentaries to something if not more respectful, then at least to more polite and compassionate.
:namaste:

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Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

Post by DooDoot » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:44 am

frank k wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:40 pm
No, it's not two meanings. distractive thoughts and permissable thoughts are both 'thoughts'. In first jhana you have thoughts which are not distractive, they're nekhamma, abyapada, avihimsa sankappo/vitakka, such as "may you be happy", or "i will pervade my awareness of breath within the entire physical body". This is clearly explained in MN 19, MN 125, MN 78. What makes the vitakka outside first different from inside (MN 19) is that intensity and frequency of vitakka is attenuated to not tire the body, and allow passadhi-sambojjhanga to take you into first jhana.
MN 19 appears to not support the above ideas about the 1st jhana:
MN 19 wrote:“As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of non-ill will arose in me…a thought of non-cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of non-cruelty has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

....Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi
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frank k
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Re: manasā dhammaṃ viññāya: b.sujato's translation is grievously wrong

Post by frank k » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:28 am

hint:
1. check the pali for the words, and compare to other English translators.
2. you did not compare with the other suttas I referenced below that show, by omission, how sankappa and vitakka is to be understood.
This is clearly explained in MN 19, MN 125, MN 78.
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:44 am
frank k wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:40 pm
No, it's not two meanings. distractive thoughts and permissable thoughts are both 'thoughts'. In first jhana you have thoughts which are not distractive, they're nekhamma, abyapada, avihimsa sankappo/vitakka, such as "may you be happy", or "i will pervade my awareness of breath within the entire physical body". This is clearly explained in MN 19, MN 125, MN 78. What makes the vitakka outside first different from inside (MN 19) is that intensity and frequency of vitakka is attenuated to not tire the body, and allow passadhi-sambojjhanga to take you into first jhana.
MN 19 appears to not support the above ideas about the 1st jhana:
MN 19 wrote:“As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of non-ill will arose in me…a thought of non-cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of non-cruelty has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

....Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

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