Pali term: samsāra

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DooDoot
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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:12 pm
Try reading it alout:
... sandhāvataṃ saṃsarataṃ.
roaming and transmigrating
It's relatively common to find wordplay such as this, with similar-sounding words.
Hi Mike. It appears it is you that is engaged in "wordplay", including the interpretative non-literal idea of "transmigration". I already posted sufficient sutta evidence that "samsara" includes "cycling/wandering" in egoism. Even in the speculative event that there is "rebirth/reincarnation", what appears to drive this "rebirth/reincarnation" is samsaric egoism or selfing. SN 23.2 appears to say "a being" is merely the mind "stuck in strong clinging" rather than a "sentient being". Possibly, if we can abandon the samsaric self-view of "Sujato", we may be able to consider sutta objectively. Kind regards :smile:
mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:12 pm
This thread is about the meaning of the language.... I quoted a translation.
My impression is there was a rather bold censuring of Venerable Nanananda's translations and the rather bold assertion of Venerable Sujato's translations and other bold yet baseless assertions, that continue (such as the suttas are "wordplay").

Ultimately, it appears the issues you raised are about the validity of Venerable Nanananda's ‘thisness’ and ‘otherwiseness’. I previously posted a sutta that literally says samsara is about the "I-maker & other-maker" but you seem to given the impression of asserting the common Sujato idea that "bhava" in "itthabhāvaññathābhāvaṁ" means "reincarnation".
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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by mikenz66 »

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:00 pm
Hi Mike. It appears it is you that is engaged in "wordplay", including the interpretative non-literal idea of "transmigration". ...
No, my intention was to explore the meaning of "Pali term: samsāra". Retro started the thread with an attempt at deriving a meaning which, as Volo has pointed out, is not the generally accepted etymology. I asked how that meaning might work in various suttas. The thread now seems to have drifted into a discussion of members' interpretations of samsāra, which really belong elsewhere.

:heart:
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DooDoot
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Re: Pali term: samsāra

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mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:42 am
as Volo has pointed out, is not the generally accepted etymology.
I pointed it out also, before Volo did, as follows (click in linked word):
DooDoot wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:55 am
...Bhikkhus, this saṃsara (saṃsāro)...
Regardless, the interpretation of the word seems to be paramount for the topic. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I'm not sure you can really differentiate between interpretation and meaning . An interpretation is simply what someone thinks it means.

As such, so long as posts made are about trying to better understand the definition and/or meaning of samsāra - including what it is, and what it is not - then I'd consider them to be relevant to the conversation.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

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ToVincent
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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by ToVincent »


Taṇhādutiyo puriso,
Dīghamaddhāna saṃsaraṃ;
Itthabhāvaññathābhāvaṃ,
Saṃsāraṃ nātivattati.

Ñāṇananda Translation wrote:
The man wandering long, with craving as his partner
Does not transcend this saṁsāra which is an alternation between ‘thisness’ and ‘otherwiseness’.

Then Ñāṇananda explains what, (in his view), tatratatrābhinandinī means:

... This process is referred to as tatratatrābhinandinī - the fact that the beings wander in saṁsāra between ‘thisness’ and
‘otherwiseness’. This happens not only from life to life and birth to birth but also within a lifetime. This change is extremely subtle. I have given you these details to enable you to understand
itthabhāva and aññathābhāva.

However this might be a little too "subtle" - which usually happens when one goes well beyond the primary meaning of words.
Words might have several meanings in Pali and Sanskrit - and although quite different, they can show some kind of "subtle" complementarity. However, it is not the prerogative of a translator to add a new definition of his own (that depends on his own interpretation).

Abhinandin is an adjective from abhinandati: rejoicing at, finding pleasure in. (See nanda).
Tatratatrābhinandinī just means to rejoice in this or that (new condition - viz. new life/new existence).

Itthabhāvaññathābhāvaṃ:
Sujato's translation is far more accurate: "In this form of existence or some other", than Ñāṇananda's one: "between ‘thisness’ and ‘otherwiseness’."

_________

संसार saṃsāra [action of saṃsār]
संसार् saṃsār [causative of saṃsṛ]
संसृ saṃsṛ [sam-sṛ]
√ सृ sṛ

----

सर sāra [agent of √ सृ sṛ]
- course , motion (see [ pūrva-s ] )

सारणिक sāraṇika: a traveller - MBh.
सारसारिन् sārasārin [ sāra-sārin ]: running courses or races , TB.

..........

And
सर sāra
As a word by itself, means:
- the core or pith or solid interior of anything - RV.
- firmness , strength - AV.
- the substance or essence or marrow or cream or heart or essential part of anything , best part , quintessence - AitBr.

In compounds, it is usually used iic. (in initio compositi):
- sāratā: solidity.
- sārabhāṇḍa: treasure, precious thing.
- sārabhūta: essential thing.
- sārāsāra [asāra], sāroddhāra [uddhāra], etc.


How this latter meaning of सर sāra be related to the former ?
Does the latter सर sāra have to do with the √ सृ sṛ ?

Let's see what √ सृ sṛ means in the first place (in Buddha's time).

√ सृ sṛ

- to run, flow, move, go, "to spring up".
- to begin to flow - AV.
(cf. √ sal )

- to run after, pursue - RV.
- to cause one's self to be driven - ĀśvGṛ.
- to wish to run - TS.

If the usual meaning of saṃsāra seems to be adequately related to the three last definitions of the √ सृ sṛ - that is to say "transmigrations", as one causes himself to be driven, to pursue and wish to run new existences - there might be also (as retrofuturist states it rightly), some kind of wrong view attached to this desire to pursue a new existence in the world of forms, and particularly in the existential form that satta takes in the saḷāyatana nidāna.
Kiñhi siyā, bhikkhave, rūpe sāro?
For what substance (essence) could there be in form?
SN 22.95

If the strength, the essential part, the essence, and even the final actualized substance, is in the "spring up" (the beginning of the flow"); it is certainly not in satta, which is anicca (impermanent & not one's own - [note that anicca has both these meanings]).

Saṃsāra is both due to this wrong view of nicca, and to the desire to pursue further existences (births).
.
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DooDoot
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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by DooDoot »

ToVincent wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:35 am
Tatratatrābhinandinī just means to rejoice in this or that (new condition - viz. new life/new existence).
It means similar to your salivating over the posts you make (and similar). If means all of the myriad & multiple delighting done in this life - the billions of acts of delighting - in this, that, this, that, - billions of them. If we don't think it means this then we completely miss the point of the teaching and its implications for practise. :smile:
The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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ToVincent
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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by ToVincent »

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:49 am
ToVincent wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:35 am
Tatratatrābhinandinī just means to rejoice in this or that (new condition - viz. new life/new existence).
It means similar to your salivating over the posts you make (and similar). If means all of the myriad & multiple delighting done in this life - the billions of acts of delighting - in this, that, this, that, - billions of them. If we don't think it means this then we completely miss the point of the teaching and its implications for practise. :smile:
The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I wouldn't want to ?salivate? too much (how refined); so I suppose that SN 22.103 and its quite perfect parallel SA 70, would solve our little disagrement; with far more clarity than the dubious MN 44 (poor parallel in the Agama).
In other words, I do not deny that "becoming" is related to the "the billions of acts of delighting in this life", as you put it. However, the "there" in the "here/this and there/that" (tatra-tatra [tatratatrābhinandinī],) must also be considered and understood.
That is to say, it cannot be unconnected with aññatha in ittha/aññatha (itthabhāvaññathābhāvaṃ).
If you have any doubt, check SN 22.8/SA 44 (a quite good parallel).
As you can see, "clinging" does not only involve tatra-tatra, but also ittha/aññatha.

I am not sure that aññatha means the "there/that" of "this life".
Itthatta means "in the present state of becoming; this (earthly) state (PTS).
And aññatha means the "other state".
Particularly when they are compounded with bhāva.

As far as saṃsāra is concerned, the "there/that" seems to adress the probable life after death; (as a deva, for instance - or another human life - or....

----
Don't worry! - At least, with you, conversations takes a more deeper meaning. And that is salivatory.
And I suppose that you should "salivate" a bit more, and carry your investigations a bit further.
That would be even more salvific..
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by Assaji »

From Monier-Williams dictionary:

saṃsāra

saṃ-sāra a &c. See saṃ-√ sṛ below.

saṃ-sāra b m. going or wandering through, undergoing transmigration, MaitrUp.

course, passage, passing through a succession of states, circuit of mundane existence, transmigration, metempsychosis, the world, secular life, worldly illusion (ā saṃsārāt, ‘from the beginning of the world’), Up. ; Mn. ; MBh. &c.
w.r. for saṃ-cāra, Bhartṛ.

https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln. ... caller.php


sṛ

Whitney Roots links: sṛ & Westergaard Dhatupatha links: 32.107, 22.37, 25.17
sṛ (cf. √ sal) cl. 1. 3. P. (Dhātup. xxii, 37; xxv, 17 ) sarati (ep. also °te and accord. to Pāṇ. 7-3, 78 also dhāvati), and sisarti (the latter base only in Veda; 3. du. sisratuḥ, 3. pl. sisrate, RV. ; p. sisrat [q.v.] ib. ; pf. sasāra, sasre, ib. &c.; 1. du. sasriva, ŚBr. ; p. sasṛvas, sasrāṇa and sasṛmāṇa, RV. ; aor. asārṣīt Gr.; Subj. sarṣat, AV. ; Prec. sriyāt Gr.; fut. sartā, ib. ; sariṣyati, RV. &c.; inf. sartum, MBh. &c.; sartave, °tavai, RV. ; ind.p. sṛtvā, Br. ; -sṛtya, -sāram, Br. &c.),
to run, flow, speed, glide, move, go (with uccakais, ‘to spring up’; with vājam, or ājim, ‘to run a race’ i.e. ‘exert one's self’), RV. c. &c.;
to blow (as wind), Megh. ;
to run away, escape, R. ; Mālav. ; BhP. ;
to run after, pursue (acc.), RV. ;
to go towards, betake one's self to (acc. or tatra &c.), MBh. ; BhP. ;
to go against, attack, assail, MBh. ;
to cross, traverse (acc.), R. ;
(Ā.) to begin to flow (said of the fluid which surrounds the fetus), AV. :
Pass. sriyate (aor. asāri, Br. ), to be gone &c., Gr.:
Caus. sārayati or cl. 10. P. (Dhātup. xxxii, 107 ) to cause to run, Nir. ;
to set in motion, strike (a lute), Megh. ;
to remove, push aside (a braid of hair), ib. ;
put in array, to arrange (with dyūtam, ‘the men on a chess-board’), Pañcad. ;
to make visible, show, manifest, Viddh. ;
to nourish, foster (gen.), HPariś. ;
Ā. sārayate (for sarayate See saraya, p. 1182, col. 1), to cause one's self to be driven, drive (in a carriage), ĀśvGṛ. : pass. sāryate, to be made to flow, discharge (excrement), Suśr. :
Desid. sisīrṣati, to wish to run (vājam, ‘a race’), TS. :
Intens. (cf. sarisrara) sarsṛte (p. sarsrāṇa See pra-√ sṛ) or sarīṣarti, to stride backwards and forwards, Kāv. ;
to blow violently (as the wind), ib.
sṛ [cf. Gk. ὁρμή, ὁρμάω; ἅλμα, ἅλλομαι; Lat. salire.]

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Assaji
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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by Assaji »

From the Pali-English dictionary:

Sarati [sṛ (p. 697) Sarati [sṛ Sarati1 [sṛ given by Dhtp 248 as "gati"] to go, flow, run, move along J iii.95 (=parihāyati nassati C.); Pot. sare J iv.284. -- aor. asarā J vi.199. -- pp. sarita1. -- Caus. sāreti (1) to make go A i.141; iii.28=M i.124=S iv.176 J iv.99; Miln 378; Vism 207. -- (2) to rub, to mix Vin ii.116. Also sarāpeti. A Desid. formn is siŋsare (3rd pl. med.) at Vv 647 (=Sk. sisīrṣati), cp. Geiger, P.Gr. § 184.

https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ ... =Sarati%20[s%E1%B9%9B&searchhws=yes

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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by SamKR »

Samsara = sequence of Lokas one after another (a virtually non-stoppable flow/river with no apparent beginning - and beings are embedded in and carried away by this flow/river due to avijja).

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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by Spiny Norman »

So is samsara equivalent to DO? Or does it specifically describe the bhava nidana?
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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dinsdale,
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:40 am
So is samsara equivalent to DO?
Yes.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Pali term: samsāra

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Samsara is a Sanskrit word that comes from the combination of Samsa (illusion) and Ra (movement).
http://www.saindodamatrix.com.br/archiv ... msara.html

It has a translation of a text by Thanissaro Bhikkhu in Portuguese that begins with this sentence.
the text I found the text font but not the first sentence ..
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... msara.html

Saŋsa
https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ ... Sa%C5%8Bsa

ra
https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ ... y.py?qs=ra

:anjali:
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