sakkāya-diṭṭhi

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auto
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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:00 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:01 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:28 pm
... greed is sukha feeling ...
Greed is not a feeling.
lets see

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

Consciousness what knows feelings can hold only one object at a time; when it is painful feeling then it is pleasant in going away. Pleasant feeling is pleasant when it stays.

Suitable for practice(jhanas) are feelings where is greed, aversion and delusion.

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
“Anything felt physically or mentally as pleasant or enjoyable. “Yaṃ kho, āvuso visākha, kāyikaṃ vā cetasikaṃ vā sukhaṃ sātaṃ vedayitaṃ— This is pleasant feeling. ayaṃ sukhā vedanā.
anything felt as pleasant .. is pleasant feeling.
“Pleasant feeling is pleasant when it remains and painful when it perishes. “Sukhā kho, āvuso visākha, vedanā ṭhitisukhā vipariṇāmadukkhā;
“The underlying tendency for greed underlies pleasant feeling.“Sukhāya kho, āvuso visākha, vedanāya rāgānusayo anuseti,
rāgānusayo is not greed itself. Painful feeling is the underlying tendency for greed. Word alone or independently doesn't mean anything.
“The underlying tendency to greed should be given up when it comes to pleasant feeling. “Sukhāya kho, āvuso visākha, vedanāya rāgānusayo pahātabbo,
it can't be done simply there have to be causes and conditions, therefore there is jhanas what work like causes and conditions but in a way of cessation, btw which only can be done by when bhava is fully developed.
“Should these underlying tendencies be given up regarding all instances of these feelings? “No, not in all instances.
and we got to the jhana description:
Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that...
https://suttacentral.net/sa-2.50/en/bingenheimer
The Buddha told Sakka: “What is well explained is always well spoken. Now hear what I have to say.” And he spoke a verse:

“For the sake of gain, sentient beings /
all strive for whatever they desire.
The desire for gains, the wish for happiness: /
if people strive with strong effort they will attain what they seek
Once the goal is attained, patience is supreme; /
therefore one should practice patience.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
Oh, when will I enter and remain in the same dimension that the noble ones enter and remain in today?’ ‘kudāssu nāmāhaṃ tadāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharissāmi yadariyā etarahi āyatanaṃ upasampajja viharantī’ti?
Nursing such a longing for the supreme liberations gives rise to sadness due to longing. Iti anuttaresu vimokkhesu pihaṃ upaṭṭhāpayato uppajjati pihāppaccayā domanassaṃ.
With this they give up repulsion, and the underlying tendency to repulsion does not lie within that. Paṭighaṃ tena pajahati, na tattha paṭighānusayo anuseti.
nursing longing which is greed it will result in dukkha feeling, with that they give up aversion. As here the greed is wanted it will give rise to dukkha feeling by what the aversion ceases and that aversion doesn't have sukha feeling underlying it.
Last edited by auto on Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:18 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:00 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:01 pm
auto wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:28 pm
... greed is sukha feeling ...
Greed is not a feeling.
lets see
...
...
Thanks for the explanation.
Still, Greed somehow successfully remains to be Greed, and not a Feeling.
.


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  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

auto
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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:29 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:18 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:00 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:01 pm


Greed is not a feeling.
lets see
...
...
Thanks for the explanation.
Still, Greed somehow successfully remains to be Greed, and not a Feeling.
idk not 1=1 but they have relationship

you have three types of feelings and three underying tendencies- pleasant, greed;unpleasant, aversion;neutral,delusion
and
greed has unpleasant feeling as underlying tendecy. aversion has pleasant feeling as underlying tendency.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:48 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:29 pm
...
greed has unpleasant feeling as underlying tendecy. aversion has pleasant feeling as underlying tendency.

Thanks.
It sounds like a poetic koan. I like it. I somehow opens my mind.


btw, Underlying Tendencies are a different kind of beasts than Feelings.


Image
.


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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:54 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:48 pm
btw, Underlying Tendencies are a different kind of beasts than Feelings.
i wonder is there shorter equivalent for word underlying tendecy?

an urge?

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:28 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:54 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:48 pm
btw, Underlying Tendencies are a different kind of beasts than Feelings.
i wonder is there shorter equivalent for word underlying tendecy?

an urge?

Urge [a strong desire or impulse] is more overt than underlying.


https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article ... endencies/


https://suttacentral.net/sn45.175/en/bodhi


https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... encies.htm
1. Wherein is the underlying tendency to sensual desire?
  • In the two feelings associated with the sensual realms.
    Herein is the underlying tendency to sensual desire.
2. Wherein is the underlying tendency to repulsion?
  • In painful feeling.
    Herein is the underlying tendency to repulsion.
.


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  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

auto
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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:03 pm

sakkāya- means your own body.
sakkāya-diṭṭhi - is the way how you see your body or the view you hold regards to your body. Body is what gives you the default way of seeing things and taking it as solid unchangeable truth.
What is the origin of identity that the Buddha spoke of?” Katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkāyasamudayo vutto bhagavatā”ti?
“It’s the craving that leads to future rebirth, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure in various different realms. That is, “Yāyaṃ, āvuso visākha, taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ—
craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence. kāmataṇhā bhavataṇhā vibhavataṇhā;

the sakkaya is something what comes about because of craving. Craving comes about when there is feeling(kaya) what needs or wants to be come out or appear.
“But ma’am, how does identity view come about?” “Kathaṃ panāyye, sakkāyadiṭṭhi hotī”ti?
..
They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form. rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.
the kaya(form, feeling..) what gives rise to craving is what is considered as atta.

hmm

the sakkāya is corporeal presentation of kāya, what arose because of thinking the kāya is yours(taking interest in it), which were insisted by craving

..
thing is somehow the abodes of consciousnesses and 8 liberations come about. Eradication of sakkāya-diṭṭhi fetter, the views are here i think regards to these 8 abodes based on a contact arisen feelings.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:10 pm

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/sujato
“For a fool hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced. But the fool has not given up that ignorance or finished that craving. “Yāya ca, bhikkhave, avijjāya nivutassa bālassa yāya ca taṇhāya sampayuttassa ayaṃ kāyo samudāgato, sā ceva avijjā bālassa appahīnā sā ca taṇhā aparikkhīṇā.
Why is that? Taṃ kissa hetu?
The fool has not completed the spiritual journey for the complete ending of suffering. Na, bhikkhave, bālo acari brahmacariyaṃ sammā dukkhakkhayāya. Therefore, when their body breaks up, the fool is reborn in another body. Tasmā bālo kāyassa bhedā kāyūpago hoti,
the kāya here is sakkāya. That body is produced.

how to understand how the fool is reborn in another sakkāya?
and how it would fit with the general meaning of sakkāya?

hmm,
For an astute person hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced. But the astute person has given up that ignorance and finished that craving. Yāya ca, bhikkhave, avijjāya nivutassa paṇḍitassa yāya ca taṇhāya sampayuttassa ayaṃ kāyo samudāgato, sā ceva avijjā paṇḍitassa pahīnā, sā ca taṇhā parikkhīṇā.
Why is that? Taṃ kissa hetu?
The astute person has completed the spiritual journey for the complete ending of suffering. Acari, bhikkhave, paṇḍito brahmacariyaṃ sammā dukkhakkhayāya.
Therefore, when their body breaks up, the astute person is not reborn in another body. Tasmā paṇḍito kāyassa bhedā na kāyūpago hoti.
Not being reborn in another body, they’re freed from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. So akāyūpago samāno parimuccati jātiyā jarāmaraṇena sokehi paridevehi dukkhehi domanassehi upāyāsehi.
looks like the body what breaks up is not physical?

astute person doesn't reborn in another body when body breaks up. Where that astute person is then? haha

from previous post i think sakkāya is corporeal.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:21 am

Sakkāya is also translated as 'the personality' based on SN 22.103, 105 (see Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p. 39).

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by ToVincent » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:56 am

I suppose one might know first what kāya really means:
https://justpaste.it/57le2
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

SamKR
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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by SamKR » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:57 pm

In my opinion, sakkāya-diṭṭhi means the view that body exists independently and inherently (= 'really') -- which is an exact opposite of the view that the body dependently appears to arise, is empty, fabricated and imputed due to ignorance.

This view that the body exists independently and inherently (that is, non-empty) acts as a basis for the view that the body is the self or center of self, or the view "I am the body".

So, strictly speaking, sakkāya-diṭṭhi is not self-view or personality-view but a condition for the arising of self-view.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:53 am

SamKR wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:57 pm
In my opinion, sakkāya-diṭṭhi means the view that body exists independently and inherently (= 'really') -- which is an exact opposite of the view that the body dependently appears to arise, is empty, fabricated and imputed due to ignorance.

This view that the body exists independently and inherently (that is, non-empty) acts as a basis for the view that the body is the self or center of self, or the view "I am the body".

So, strictly speaking, sakkāya-diṭṭhi is not self-view or personality-view but a condition for the arising of self-view.
It is incorrect to translate directly the Pali term, sakkāya-diṭṭhi, as "a condition for the arising of self-view".

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by SamKR » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:01 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:53 am

It is incorrect to translate directly the Pali term, sakkāya-diṭṭhi, as "a condition for the arising of self-view".
That's not a translation but my interpretation or my understanding as of now, and of course it is possible that this is wrong.

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