sakkāya-diṭṭhi

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auto
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sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:37 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn65/en/sujato
Suppose I was to say the same thing to a mendicant who is freed by wisdom, idhassa bhikkhu paññāvimutto …
or a personal witness, kāyasakkhi …
or attained to view, diṭṭhippatto …
or freed by faith, saddhāvimutto …
or a follower of the teachings, dhammānusārī …
or a follower by faith: saddhānusārī, tamahaṃ evaṃ vadeyyaṃ:
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/sakkhi
sakkhiPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Sakkhi,1 [sa3+akkhin; cp.Sk.sākṣin] an eyewitness D.II,237 (Nom.sg.sakkhī=with his own eyes,as an eyewitness); Sn.479,921,934 (sakkhi dhammaṁ adassi,where the corresp.Sk.form would be sākṣād); J.I,74.-- kāya-sakkhī a bodily witness,i.e.one who has bodily experienced the 8 vimokkhas A.IV,451; Vism.93,387,659.-- sakkhiṁ karoti [Sk.sākṣī karoti] (1) to see with one’s own eyes S.II,255; (2) to call upon as a witness (with Gen.of person) J.VI,280 (rājāno); DhA.II,69 (Moggallānassa sakkhiṁ katvā); PvA.217 (but at 241 as “friendship”).Note.The P.form is rather to be taken as an adv.(“as present”) than adj.:sakkhiṁ & sakkhi,with reduced sakkhi° (cp.sakid & sakiṁ).See also sacchi°.

--diṭṭha seen face to face M.I,369; D.I,238; J.VI,233.--puṭṭha asked as a witness Sn.84,122; Pug.29.--bhabbatā the state of becoming an eyewitness,of experiencing M.I,494; DhsA.141.--sāvaka a contemporaneous or personal disciple D.II,153.(Page 661)
i think the translation of "belief in a self" is off the mark,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)
belief in a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi)[7]

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mikenz66
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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:41 pm

It may be useful to read Bhikkhu Analayo's https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... alayo.html Encyclopedia article:
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... ditthi.pdf

I'm not the Pali expert you're looking for, but you appear to be confusing sakkāya with sakkhi.

:heart:
Mike

auto
Posts: 899
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:11 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:41 pm
It may be useful to read Bhikkhu Analayo's https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... alayo.html Encyclopedia article:
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... ditthi.pdf

I'm not the Pali expert you're looking for, but you appear to be confusing sakkāya with sakkhi.

:heart:
Mike
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

sakkaya is upadanakhandha,
Visākha, the Buddha said that these five grasping aggregates are identity. “Pañca kho ime, āvuso visākha, upādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā,
origin of sakkaya is tanha,
What is the origin of identity that the Buddha spoke of?” Katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkāyasamudayo vutto bhagavatā”ti?
“It’s the craving that leads to future rebirth, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure in various different realms. That is, “Yāyaṃ, āvuso visākha, taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ—
craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence. kāmataṇhā bhavataṇhā vibhavataṇhā;
cessation of sakkaya is fading away of that tanha,
“It’s the fading away and cessation of that very same craving with nothing left over; giving it away, letting it go, releasing it, and not adhering to it. “Yo kho, āvuso visākha, tassāyeva taṇhāya asesavirāganirodho cāgo paṭinissaggo mutti anālayo;
The Buddha said that this is the cessation of identity.” ayaṃ kho, āvuso visākha, sakkāyanirodho vutto bhagavatā”ti.
chandarāga is the upadana in upadanakhandha,
The desire and greed for the five grasping aggregates is the grasping there.” Yo kho, āvuso visākha, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu chandarāgo taṃ tattha upādānan”ti.
sakkaya ditthi comes about when regarding khandhas as atta, (in case of uneducated ordinary person)
“But ma’am, how does identity view come about?” “Kathaṃ panāyye, sakkāyadiṭṭhi hotī”ti?
..
They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form. rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.
and sakkaya ditthi doesn't come about when not regarding khandhas as atta, (incase of noble disciple)
“But ma’am, how does identity view not come about?” “Kathaṃ panāyye, sakkāyadiṭṭhi na hotī”ti?
..
They don’t regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form. na rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, na attani vā rūpaṃ, na rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.
regarding khandhas as self means it is beyond your grasp, its what you are, its what means being fettered. Not seeing the atta is hindrance you can't get to further paths without the sense of self.

sakkaya doesn't cease with the first path fetter removal. Can you get access to upadanakhandha? notice chanda/impusle will wish?

cat sees a mouse the killer instinct comes out, the cat changes from lazy pet into a hunter. Cat doesn't know about the hunter mode, cat is unaware. And someone witnessing it with sensitivity can sense the chandaraga in cat and is having that mode on.

auto
Posts: 899
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:24 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:41 pm
I'm not the Pali expert you're looking for, but you appear to be confusing sakkāya with sakkhi.

:heart:
Mike
https://suttacentral.net/mn70/en/sujato
Mendicants, these seven people are found in the world. Sattime, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṃvijjamānā lokasmiṃ.
What seven? Katame satta?
One freed both ways, one freed by wisdom, a personal witness, one attained to view, one freed by faith, a follower of the teachings, and a follower by faith. Ubhatobhāgavimutto, paññāvimutto, kāyasakkhi, diṭṭhippatto, saddhāvimutto, dhammānusārī, saddhānusārī.
kāyasakkhi and the other person diṭṭhippatto just reminds me sakkāya-diṭṭhi.

both are related about realizing the goal by your own insight. Good people decide to go from lay-life to homelessness because of to realize the same thing.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.169/en/sujato
And how does a person become fully extinguished in the present life by making extra effort? Kathañca, bhikkhave, puggalo diṭṭheva dhamme sasaṅkhāraparinibbāyī hoti?
that person is an upadanakhandha what comes extinguished? and the sakkāya-diṭṭhi is the fetter when you think khandha is your self?


so the "belief in a self" is a bit lack of important detail, what is the self here, the self here is the khandha which is not your self but you think it is because of chandaraga.

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