cetaso ekodibhāva

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
frank k
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by frank k » Sun May 26, 2019 5:23 pm

I've updated the article
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... hava.html
and appended more material, short excerpt:

I agree with Ven. Kumara. "Unified" is a vague word here that doesn't really convey what to do, doesn't give any kind of hint of connection to samadhi.
But using any single word potentially has the same limitation, and the passage above is a short verse which tend to inherently be terse and not easy to unpack for those not broadly learned in suttas.
My solution would be to add parenthetical clarification, such as: "unified [in samādhi]".
So what do translators mean by "unification"?
I think this sutta explains it best:
AN 5.51 āvaraṇa-suttaṃ

(under influence of 5niv, monk can’t see clearly)
(simile of river getting split and losing power)
(repeat: under influence of 5niv, monk can’t see clearly)
(monk NOT under influence of 5niv can know and see)
(simile: undispersed river is mighty)
(repeat: monk NOT under influence of 5niv can know and see)
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ToVincent
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by ToVincent » Sun May 26, 2019 9:02 pm

frank k wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 4:57 pm
Transcending and leaving the citta behind doesn't make sense to me,...
Why would you want to leave the citta behind?

Citta is there to stay thoroughly untill the last attainment (cessation of perception and feeling - saññāvedayitanirodha).
Citta is a state, not a fixed entity.
Citta is the state of the cit since the second link of paṭiccasamuppāda (saṅkhārā nidāna).
It goes down the links (nidānas) up to the saḷāyatana nidāna, where it take the condition of a ceto - the "latent" immediate citta in this world (kāma-loka) - and cetanā as the state of that ceto in action.
But citta remains citta all along; in a sort of a neoteny, so to speak.

When one "transcend one's citta in the nimitta-less establishment of ceto" (SN 40.9), it is the citta/ceto that transcends to the citta/citta.
It is like polluted water vs. clean water, as it were. It is still water. It is "polluted" citta (ceto) vs. "pristine" citta.
Note that the parallel to SN 40.9 (SA 502 - 無相心正受), does convey that meaning of transcendence, provided that you use Nyanatusita's translation for 正受 (instead of Nakamura's one).
無相心正受 = Have a nimitta-less citta to "enter upon" (upon as "on top of").
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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Kumara
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by Kumara » Mon May 27, 2019 2:14 am

frank k wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 4:57 pm
Transcending and leaving the citta behind doesn't make sense to me...
Haha! Agree. If you can leave the citta behind, you'd be unconscious!
Or that could mean parinibbana, but still this can't apply here.
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To arrive at the right translation for "ekodi"

Post by Kumara » Mon May 27, 2019 2:45 am

To arrive at the right translation for a Pali word, it's crucial that we don't let our preferred understanding override how its used in the Suttas. We don't have to deny our preferences, but we need to see if it actually fits into the various contexts in the Suttas, instead of trying to fit our understanding into it.
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by Kumara » Mon May 27, 2019 10:05 am

Kumara wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 9:27 am
Thanks to all for participating. I still have a problem with "unified" for ekodi. See this from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Suttanipāta (p318)
962. “Having taken up what training,
dwelling unified, judicious, mindful,
should he blow away his own stains
as a smith [removes the flaws] of silver?” (8)

translated from
“kaṁ so sikkhaṁ samādāya, ekodi nipako sato.
kammāro rajatasseva, niddhame malamattano”.
Also this at the end of the same Sāriputtasutta:
975. “A bhikkhu who is mindful, well liberated in mind,
should remove desire for these things. [189]
At the proper time rightly investigating the Dhamma,
unified, he should destroy darkness”—
so said the Blessed One. (21)

translated from
“etesu dhammesu vineyya chandaṁ, bhikkhu satimā suvimuttacitto.
kālena so sammā dhammaṁ parivīmaṁsamāno,
ekodibhūto vihane tamaṁ so”ti.
It's just not understandable in normal English.
For comparison, here's Aj Thanissaro's translation (https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/S ... p4_16.html):
Undertaking what training
— mindful, astute, alone
would he blow away
his own impurities
as a silver smith,
those in molten silver?”

(Kumara's note: Not sure why he had sato and ekodi swapped places above.)

A monk, mindful,
his mind well released,
contemplating the right Dhamma
at the right times,
on coming
to oneness
6
should annihilate
darkness,”
This is more understandable, but having ekodibhūto translated to "coming to oneness" don't seem right.
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by ToVincent » Mon May 27, 2019 12:46 pm

I usually don't argue, but in my defense I'd like to pinpoint that in Sanskrit, the sandhi of eka and udi is ekodi (एक | उदि = एकोदि).

If you'd rather call "transcendence", overstepping, or surpassing, or exceding; feel free.
I think I made myself clear with the "polluted" and "clean" water metaphor.

Keep transcendence for samatikkamma, I suppose:
https://justpaste.it/1c78w
______

I didn't want to enter that possibility, (that hasn't yet been considered), but there is also the dubious and enticing prospect (for some,) of "ekoti" :
एकोति ekoti
- having one and the same aim (course), tending to one single purpose ŚBr.

In this case, I already see the universalism of late Vedism entering Buddhism, as to make it "Vedantic", through the only occurence of ekoti in the Vedic litterature; namely:
'Let him make the Prishthya and Abhiplava two warps,' said Paiṅgya; 'let him make their Stotras and Sastras run together:' inasmuch as he makes them run together, these (channels of the) vital airs, though separate from one another, run together, with one and the same aim , into a common web,...
ŚBr 12.2.2.4
Making one out of two!?!? - Hum?

I (also) already see "some" arguing that even ekotibhāva appears in the Mahāgovindīya sūtra (chapter XX of the Mahavastu - Mahasanghika/Lokottaravāda school)
“I know also what my lord Great Brahmā means by ekotibhāva. It is that a man, by suppressing applied and sustained thought through his mind becoming inwardly calm and intent, enters and abides in the first meditation, which is born of solitude and is full of joy and ease. This I know is what my lord Great Brahmā means when he talks of ekotibhāva".

This was written between the 2nd century BCE and 4th century CE - (EBT?).
Moreover the text itself is pretty dubious, as far as the definition of this jhāna is defined.
Late?
______

Then again, ekoti is ekoti; and ekodi is eka + udi (एक | उदि = एकोदि).

Ekodi = to go up to , proceed or move up (RV. AV. VS.) to "one" (I have already explained "oneness" above) .

Up to you.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by ToVincent » Tue May 28, 2019 9:04 pm

Haha! - I let my preferred understanding override, once again.
Indeed, this is how I should have formulated the above.

The sandhi of eka and udi is ekodi (एक | उदि = एकोदि).

उदि udi [ ud-√ i ], comes from उद् ud + -√ i.
- उद् ud is a particle and prefix to verbs and nouns, implying superiority in place , rank , station , or power.
It can also have the following variations: uc, uj, un, and ut.

And guess what?
The sandhi of eka and uti is ekoti (एक | उति = एकोति).

So, उदि udi [ ud-√ i ] or उत् uti [ ut-√ i ] means, as seen previouly:
- to go up to , proceed or move up - (RV. AV. VS.)
- to come out or arise from - (RV. AV. ŚBr.)
- to escape - (ChUp.)

Note again that, for instance, the parallel to SN 40.9 (SA 502 - 無相心正受), does convey this meaning of transcendence (proceeding up, overstepping, etc.), provided that you use Nyanatusita's translation for 正受 (instead of Nakamura's one).
無相心正受 = Have a nimitta-less citta to "enter upon" (upon as "on top of").


If एकोति ekoti and ekotibhāva (that is to say एकोदि ekodi and ekodibhāva), have been used respectively before and after Buddha, in the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa (ŚBr 12.2.2.4), and in the Mahavastu; then one might really consider एकोदि ekodi to be derived from eka and udi - whathever the meaning it took in the pre and post Buddha litterature.
Note that Eggeling did specify in a note, that: "this is a doubtful rendering of 'ekoti' " - (that is to say the particular meaning it takes in ŚBr 12.2.2.4), compared to the usual meaning of ut, ud, uc, uj, and un).
And note also that the definition in the Mahāgovindīya sūtra of the Mahavastu (late or not - good or not), does convey the kind of "transcendence" we find in ekoti/ekodi, when one enters and abides in the first meditation, after suppressing vitakka-vicāra
.

Is that clearer?
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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