cetaso ekodibhāva

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Kumara
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cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by Kumara » Wed May 22, 2019 4:11 am

Dear venerables and friend,

This term has been widely translated as "unification of mind". I
thought that's okay, until I thought about what "unify" mean. It's to
combine two or more units to make one.

But the citta is already one. We don't have multiple cittas. So how
can we unify one thing?

Does anyone have a better choice for this?
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budo
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by budo » Wed May 22, 2019 7:09 am

Ven Punnaji has an explanation for this, I don't know how accurate or authentic it is as he's known for his own unique intrepretation, but here it is:

He gets into at the 6-7 minute mark.


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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by frank k » Wed May 22, 2019 2:54 pm

Kumara wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:11 am
Dear venerables and friend,

This term has been widely translated as "unification of mind". I
thought that's okay, until I thought about what "unify" mean. It's to
combine two or more units to make one.

But the citta is already one. We don't have multiple cittas. So how
can we unify one thing?

Does anyone have a better choice for this?
Dear Ven.,
I did a detailed study here, including all sutta occurrences of ekodi in EBT.
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/e ... ndex.html
MN 122 and MN 20 in particular really show how ekodi-bhava acts as a verb to get samadhi by doing four jhanas

I treat the ekaggata citta and ekodi-bhava as pretty synonymous.
I translate ekagga as "single preoccupation"
and ekodi = singular, ekodi-bhava = has become singular
since ekagga citta and "samadhi" are also nearly synonymous in many contexts,
and I have samadhi = "undistractible lucidity", (not able to distract from the focus on a single preoccupation)
then all 3 terms ekodi, ekagga citta, samadhi match up, as they should.
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Sam Vara
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 22, 2019 3:31 pm

The dictionary gives ekodi as
woven into one’, integrated, unified; withdrawn, apart.
https://suttacentral.net/search?query=ekodi

The term is nearly always translated as "unified", but if it can also mean the last two terms, then that would avoid the contradiction you mention.

Edit: Warder gives "concentrated". Is it possible for a citta to be more concentrated or less concentrated? If so, that would also avoid the contradiction.

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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by pyluyten » Wed May 22, 2019 8:40 pm

frank k wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 2:54 pm
since ekagga citta and "samadhi" are also nearly synonymous in many contexts,
and I have samadhi = "undistractible lucidity", (not able to distract from the focus on a single preoccupation)
then all 3 terms ekodi, ekagga citta, samadhi match up, as they should.
I thought we had : "samadhi" may apply to all jhanas and even broader than jhanas. While ekkagata would start at jhana 2.

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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by cappuccino » Wed May 22, 2019 8:52 pm

I would think "unifying" the mind is to "focus"

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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by Kumara » Thu May 23, 2019 7:56 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:52 pm
I would think "unifying" the mind is to "focus"
When we say "focus the mind", the "mind" here means "attention". That's never how "citta" is used in the Suttas.
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by Srilankaputra » Thu May 23, 2019 8:16 am

My understanding is,

Ekkaggata is a quality shared by all four jhanas. While 'cetaso ekodibhava' is usually used for second jhana upwards. In the first jhana the citta still bends along with or swims along with vitakka vicara. 'cetaso ekodibhava' is the condition that arise from stilling vitakka vicara.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Assaji
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by Assaji » Thu May 23, 2019 8:31 am

Dear Ven. Kumara,
Kumara wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:11 am
This term has been widely translated as "unification of mind". I
thought that's okay, until I thought about what "unify" mean. It's to
combine two or more units to make one.
Oxford dictionary defines 'unify' as:
unify
verb

Make or become united, uniform, or whole.
with object ‘the government hoped to centralize and unify the nation’
no object ‘opposition groups struggling to unify around the goal of replacing the regime’
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/unify

The usage of 'unify' with object corresponds very well to Commentarial explanation of 'ekaggatā':
"Tattha cittassa ekaggatāti nānārammaṇavikkhepābhāvato ekaṃ ārammaṇaṃ aggaṃ uttamaṃ assāti ekaggo, ekaggassa bhāvo ekaggatā."

"Here the 'ekaggatā' of the mind is the state (bhāvo) when one thing is predominant (ekaggo). One thing is predominant when there's no perplexity (vikkhepa) on multiple bases and one basis (ārammaṇa) is predominant (agga) and preeminent (uttama)."
Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha 1.230

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550

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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by Kumara » Thu May 23, 2019 9:27 am

Thanks to all for participating. I still have a problem with "unified" for ekodi. See this from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Suttanipāta (p318)
962. “Having taken up what training,
dwelling unified, judicious, mindful,
should he blow away his own stains
as a smith [removes the flaws] of silver?” (8)

translated from
“kaṁ so sikkhaṁ samādāya, ekodi nipako sato.
kammāro rajatasseva, niddhame malamattano”.
Also this at the end of the same Sāriputtasutta:
975. “A bhikkhu who is mindful, well liberated in mind,
should remove desire for these things. [189]
At the proper time rightly investigating the Dhamma,
unified, he should destroy darkness”—
so said the Blessed One. (21)

translated from
“etesu dhammesu vineyya chandaṁ, bhikkhu satimā suvimuttacitto.
kālena so sammā dhammaṁ parivīmaṁsamāno,
ekodibhūto vihane tamaṁ so”ti.
It's just not understandable in normal English.
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by cappuccino » Thu May 23, 2019 12:46 pm

Kumara wrote:
cappuccino wrote: I would think "unifying" the mind is to "focus"
When we say "focus the mind", the "mind" here means "attention"
mind isn't merely attention

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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by Kumara » Fri May 24, 2019 2:27 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 12:46 pm
Kumara wrote:
cappuccino wrote: I would think "unifying" the mind is to "focus"
When we say "focus the mind", the "mind" here means "attention"
mind isn't merely attention
Right, but in English, when we say "focus the mind", we mean it as attention, don't we?
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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by cappuccino » Fri May 24, 2019 3:39 am

I would just say focus

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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by ToVincent » Fri May 24, 2019 1:12 pm

Kumara wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 9:27 am
I still have a problem with "unified" for ekodi.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::
EKODI
::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Sanskrit:
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Eka+udi (transcend - escape)
उदि udi [ ud-√ i ]
See उद् Ud: (var. uc, uj, un, ut) - particle and prefix to verbs and nouns. (As implying superiority in place , rank , station , or power) up , upwards upon, on over , above. - and √ इ i : appear (BṛĀrUp.), arise from (ChUp.), escape (RV. AV. ŚBr.)

- to come out or arise from - (RV. AV. ŚBr.)
- to escape - (ChUp.)
- to go up to , proceed or move up - (RV. AV. VS.)


Pali
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
Ekodi
Eka-Udi (idem)



°°°°°°°°°°°
EKA
°°°°°°°°°°°

Pali [PTS]
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
1. “one” as number, either with or without contrast to two or more; often also “single” opp.to nānā various, many.
2. one, by oneself, one only, alone, solitary.


Sanskrit:
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
एक Eka:
- One - (RV.)
- alone , solitary , single , that one only - (RV.)



°°°°°°°°°°°
UDI
°°°°°°°°°°°
(or udī) - artificial adj.form. fr.udeti, meaning “rising, excelling”.


With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and transcendence of citta, and consists of pīti & sukha born from its establishment; without thought and examination*.
vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
AN 3.5 (+ many same suttas extracts)
* Vicāra (विचर् vicar [ vi-√ car ]) : the "thought-concretisation" (the outcome of investigation, pondering & choice, that ensues thinking in different directions) - the "mental" undertaking that results (viz. the wish to act or conduct one's self after examination).

But, bhikkhus, there comes a time when his citta becomes internally steady, composed, transcended and established.
That establishment is peaceful and sublime, gained by full tranquilization, and attained to transcendence; it is not reined in and checked by forcefully suppressing [the defilements].
Hoti so, bhikkhave, samayo yaṃ taṃ cittaṃ ajjhattaṃyeva santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati.
So hoti samādhi santo paṇīto paṭippassaddhiladdho ekodibhāvādhigato na sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato.
AN 3.101

Steady your citta (make your citta stand still) in noble silence
ariye tuṇhībhāve cittaṃ saṇṭhapehi,
Transcend your citta in noble silence,
ariye tuṇhībhāve cittaṃ ekodibhāvaṃ karohi,
Establish your citta in noble silence.’
ariye tuṇhībhāve cittaṃ samādahā’ti.
SN 21.1


Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu’s citta has been subdued, well subdued, regarding the six fields of experience through contact, it then becomes inwardly steady, settled, transcended, and established.
bhikkhave, yato kho bhikkhuno chasu phassāyatanesu cittaṃ udujitaṃ hoti sudujitaṃ, ajjhattameva santiṭṭhati, sannisīdati, ekodi hoti, samādhiyati.
SN 35.246

Moggāllana, do not be negligent, brahmin, regarding the expression-less (manifestation-less) establishment of ceto. Steady your citta in the expression-less concentration of ceto, transcend your citta in the expression-less establishment of ceto, establish your citta in the expression-less establishment of ceto.
Moggallāna, moggallāna. Mā, brāhmaṇa, animittaṃ cetosamādhiṃ pamādo, animitte cetosamādhismiṃ cittaṃ saṇṭhapehi, animitte cetosamādhismiṃ cittaṃ ekodiṃ karohi, animitte cetosamādhismiṃ cittaṃ samādahā’ti.
SN 40.9

Come friends, fetch apart (distinctively) the noticeable body (breath) among the body, ardent, clearly discerning, having transcended , with a serenely distinctive citta, established and partaking in oneness*; in order to know the body according to how it has come to be.
Etha tumhe, āvuso, kāye kāyānupassino viharatha ātāpino sampajānā ekodibhūtā vippasannacittā samāhitā ekaggacittā, kāyassa yathābhūtaṃ ñāṇāya.
(Idem for the other khandhas)
SN 47.4
* Note: "oneness" of citta :
The noun "citta" is derived from the participle of the verbal root √ चित् cit.
Citta means "the 'thing' that has intended and designed (RV.), that has appeared and be conspicuous (RV. TS.), that has thought and reflected upon (TS. ŚBr. ChUp. MBh.), and comprehended.
Citta is a past participle. It is something "of the past". It is the first elemental and "pristine" stage of the cit. Citta appears first in the saṅkhārā nidāna. Then the more it descends (avakkanti) in the subsequent links (nidānas) of paṭiccasamuppāda, the more it gets"polluted", so to speak.
The "oneness" of citta is about recovering this primary dimension. Although one knows that this is not an end in itself. For the citta had, as its primary motive, the intention, the aim, the wish (RV. VS. AV. TBr.) and the longing for (ChUp.) making things to appear (RV.), so they could be comprehended.
Once one's citta/ceto has comprehended (in the saḷāyatana nidāna) - one must stop thinking & reflecting - one does not need to make things conspicuous (to his/her citta) any longer; and one does not need to wish, or intent, or desire anything anymore.
One just goes back to the original "oneness" of the citta, and abandons it as well (withdrawal from citta = cittavūpakāsena SN 46.3).

Cetaso (ceto) ekodibhāva is just transcending the ceto, towards the superior established (samādhi) citta (free from wordly sensory stimuli and intentions).
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: cetaso ekodibhāva

Post by frank k » Sun May 26, 2019 4:57 pm

I like your interpretation, with ekodi = eka + udi, since "rise above", "transcend" adds a real nice meditation image or instruction to convey.
But can't the PTS definition of ekodi = eka + odi work as well? They use that to support "one-pointedness", and the idea of "setting a boundary" makes sense, with eka being solitude, the the boundary being outside world stimuli.

With the eka+udi as transcending citta, does the grammar support that? Or can it be the citta is doing the transcending? Transcending and leaving the citta behind doesn't make sense to me, which is what it sounds like you were saying.


from PTS:
Odhi [from odahati, Sk. avadhi, fr. ava + dhā] putting down, fixing, i. e. boundary, limit, extent DhA ii.80 (jaṇṇu -- mattena odhinā to the extent of the knee, i. e kneedeep); iv.204 (id.).

Udeti (ud + eti of i to go] to go out or up, to rise (of the sun), to come out, to increase Asl. 169; Vism 156 (eko udetī ti ekodi); J ii.33; iii.324; ppr. udayaŋ It 85 (ādicco), & udayanto PvA 154 (udayante suriye = sole surgente). -- pp. ;udita (see udita1). Cp. udicca & udi.;
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