"Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

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DooDoot
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"Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali gurus

Generally, I prefer the translation of "ariyasāvaka" as "noble disciple" (thus referring to at least a stream-enterer). For example, I think the following quote from SN 48.10 aptly refers to a stream-enterer; given "vossaggā" is the quality of the factors of enlightenment described in MN 118 :
And what is the faculty of immersion?
Katamañca, bhikkhave, samādhindriyaṃ?

It’s when a noble disciple, relying on letting go, gains immersion, gains unification of mind.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.10/en/sujato
It’s when a mendicant develops the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, and equanimity, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu satisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato

However, DN 31, which appears to be a teaching to a non-Buddhist householder, contains the following:
Householder’s son, a noble disciple gives up four corrupt deeds, doesn’t do bad deeds on four grounds, and avoids six drains on wealth. When they’ve left these fourteen bad things behind they have the six quarters covered.

Yato kho, gahapatiputta, ariyasāvakassa cattāro kammakilesā pahīnā honti, catūhi ca ṭhānehi pāpakammaṃ na karoti, cha ca bhogānaṃ apāyamukhāni na sevati, so evaṃ cuddasa pāpakāpagato chaddisāpaṭicchādī

They’re practicing to win in both worlds, and they succeed in this world and the next.
ubholokavijayāya paṭipanno hoti. Tassa ayañceva loko āraddho hoti paro ca loko.

When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.
So kāyassa bhedā paraṃ maraṇā sugatiṃ saggaṃ lokaṃ upapajjati.

https://suttacentral.net/dn31/en/sujato
The above, from DN 31, plus the entire sutta of DN 31, does not sound like at least stream-entry to me. DN 31 merely sounds like a teaching for ordinary moral householders.

Please kindly offer any linguistic or other scholarly insights. Thank you :smile:
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Volo
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Volo »

Although ariyasāvaka usually refers to one of 8 noble individuals, it's not always the case. Sometimes Buddha describing a training of disciple can call him ariyasāvaka even on the stages, when he still a puthujjhana (e.g. MN 27, 125).

Some other examples, which seem not referring to one of 8 ariyas:

Householder, a noble disciple who gives food gives the recipients four things. What four? [64] He gives life, beauty, happiness, and strength. AN 4.58

“Householder, a noble disciple who possesses four qualities is practicing the way proper to the layperson, a way that brings the attainment of fame and leads to heaven. What four? “Here, householder, a noble disciple serves the Saṅgha of bhikkhus with robes; he serves the Saṅgha of bhikkhus with almsfood; he serves the Saṅgha of bhikkhus with lodgings; he serves the Saṅgha of bhikkhus with medicines and provisions for the sick. AN 4.60

Utilization of wealth by a noble disciple AN 5.41.
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Assaji
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Assaji »

Sometimes this term refers to those who have not yet attained stream-entry:

idha pana gihī vā hotu pabbajito vā, yo koci sutavāti ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno, ayaṃ ariyasāvakoti veditabbo.

AN-a 1, 6. accharāsaṅghātavaggavaṇṇanā, para. 11

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=31703#p468093
Volo wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:51 am Although ariyasāvaka usually refers to one of 8 noble individuals, it's not always the case. Sometimes Buddha describing a training of disciple can call him ariyasāvaka even on the stages, when he still a puthujjhana (e.g. MN 27, 125).
These suttas tell about those on the way to stream-entry, there's no mention of putthujjanas.
Volo wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:51 am Some other examples, which seem not referring to one of 8 ariyas:

Householder, a noble disciple who gives food gives the recipients four things. What four? [64] He gives life, beauty, happiness, and strength. AN 4.58

“Householder, a noble disciple who possesses four qualities is practicing the way proper to the layperson, a way that brings the attainment of fame and leads to heaven. What four? “Here, householder, a noble disciple serves the Saṅgha of bhikkhus with robes; he serves the Saṅgha of bhikkhus with almsfood; he serves the Saṅgha of bhikkhus with lodgings; he serves the Saṅgha of bhikkhus with medicines and provisions for the sick. AN 4.60

Utilization of wealth by a noble disciple AN 5.41.
Laypeople may well be on the way to stream-entry, and thus belong to ariya-sangha. And they may have obtained higher fruits as well.
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Volo »

Assaji wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:45 am These suttas tell about those on the way to stream-entry, there's no mention of putthujjanas.
he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the yellow robe, and goes forth from the home life into homelessness. It is in this way that a noble disciple comes out into the open...
When, Aggivessana, the noble disciple is virtuous…
When, Aggivessana, the noble disciple guards the doors...
Etc
Do you want to say that becoming a monk would make one a sotāpatti-magga? Or that Buddha refers here only to those who already entered the path of stream entry before becoming a bhikkhu? Please, clarify.
Laypeople may well be on the way to stream-entry, and thus belong to ariya-sangha. And they may have obtained higher fruits as well.
Thanks for reminding about this, but I doubt I've ever opposed it. I meant these are general instructions, applied not only to ariyas. Not only ariya by giving food gives "life, beauty, happiness, and strength" (AN 4.58), not only ariya by giving 4 requisites "practicing the way proper to the layperson, a way that brings the attainment of fame and leads to heaven" (AN 4.60), etc.
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Assaji
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Assaji »

Volo wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:40 am
Assaji wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:45 am These suttas tell about those on the way to stream-entry, there's no mention of putthujjanas.
he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the yellow robe, and goes forth from the home life into homelessness. It is in this way that a noble disciple comes out into the open...
When, Aggivessana, the noble disciple is virtuous…
When, Aggivessana, the noble disciple guards the doors...
Etc
Do you want to say that becoming a monk would make one a sotāpatti-magga? Or that Buddha refers here only to those who already entered the path of stream entry before becoming a bhikkhu? Please, clarify.
Well, I have stated clearly what I mean.
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Volo »

Assaji wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:17 am Well, I have stated clearly what I mean.
I'm still puzzled by what you've meant saying MN 25, 127 are about sotapatti magga... But ok, it seems at least we both agree that ariyasāvaka doesn't necessarily refer to 8 ariyas.
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Assaji »

IMHO, ariyasāvaka refers to four pairs of persons in ariyasangha.
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Volo »

Well since you don't explain your point, I cannot answer.

BTW quote from Ven. Bodhi (https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm)
Though the term ariya-sāvaka is occasionally used in a loose sense that need not be taken to imply attainment of stream-entry, here [in the sutta he discusses] the expression "seeing with perfect wisdom" seems to establish his identity as at least a stream-enterer.
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Srilankaputra »

Not an expert, but this is how i understood it.
Within the greater society, Ariyasavaka would be any one who has professed buddhism. Within the buddhist sangha Ariyasavaka, are the eight classes of individuals.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by pitakele »

Literally sāvaka translates as 'hearer' -> 'disciple'. I have always understood ariyasāvaka as ariyānaṁ sāvaka 'disciple of the noble ones'. This is the definition as per PTS Pali English Dictionary:
ariyasāvaka, a disciple of the noble ones (= ariyānaŋ santike sutattā a. SnA 166). M i.8, 46, 91, 181, 323; ii.262; iii.134, 228, 272; It 75 https://goo.gl/DK9oZA
If the term is understood in this way, it can be used interchangeably in suttas referencing puthujjana or ariyapuggala. However, if translated as 'noble disciple' (ariya sāvaka) there is the issue as raised by the OP. Perhaps for this reason, in at least one sutta, Ven. Sujāto has chosen to sidestep translating ariyasāvako ....
Idha, gahapati, ariyasāvako uṭṭhānavīriyādhigatehi bhogehi bāhābalaparicitehi sedāvakkhittehi dhammikehi dhammaladdhehi attānaṃ sukheti pīṇeti sammā sukhaṃ pariharati

Firstly, with his legitimate wealth—earned by his efforts and initiative, built up with his own hands, gathered by the sweat of the brow—he makes himself happy and pleased, keeping himself properly happy.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.41/en/sujato
Note: The term ariyasāvaka may have been coined by Buddha to differentiate his disciples from Mahāvīra's disciples who were also known as sāvakas https://goo.gl/6DDBdi
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Volo »

pitakele wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:53 pm Literally sāvaka translates as 'hearer' -> 'disciple'. I have always understood ariyasāvaka as ariyānaṁ sāvaka 'disciple of the noble ones'. This is the definition as per
Good point. An explicit distinction between a wordling and a noble would be "sutavā ariyasāvako" (instructed/learned noble disciple). Although "ariyasāvaka" usually also refers to ariya, but it doesn't really seem to be a "technical term".
Perhaps for this reason, in at least one sutta, Ven. Sujāto has chosen to sidestep translating ariyasāvako ....
If this is not a mistake from his side, then he probably assumed ariyasāvaka can refer only to an ariya. But the solution he found is a strange one.
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by pitakele »

Volo wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:00 am An explicit distinction between a wordling and a noble would be "sutavā ariyasāvako" (instructed/learned noble disciple). Although "ariyasāvaka" usually also refers to ariya, but it doesn't really seem to be a "technical term".
If a search is done, I think there will be many suttas where ariyasāvaka is not referring to an ariya.
Volo wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:00 amIf this is not a mistake from his side, then he probably assumed ariyasāvaka can refer only to an ariya. But the solution he found is a strange one.
I searched (not extensively), but didn't locate other suttas where Ven. Sujāto hasn't translated ariyasāvaka. However, in at least one sutta, where ariyasāvaka is used together with sotāpanna, the translation 'noble disciple' is redundant. 'Disciple of the noble ones' would make more sense grammatically.
Catūhi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato ariyasāvako sotāpanno hoti avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyaṇo.

Mendicants, a noble disciple who has four things is a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.2/en/sujato
As opposed to Vens Bodhi & Sujāto, Ven. Ṭhānissaro always translates ariyasāvaka as 'disciple of the noble ones', e.g.
There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:49 pm Please kindly offer any linguistic or other scholarly insights.
In the commentaries ariyasāvaka is sometimes defined in a manner that supports the remark from Bhikkhu Bodhi quoted earlier in this thread — that is, it's defined in a way that seems not exclude the virtuous worlding. For example, "An ariyasāvaka is a disciple of the noble one, the Buddha" (ariyasāvako ti ariyassa buddhassa sāvako.

Indeed sometimes it is defined in a way that would explicitly include the worldling, e.g., "One desirous of arriving at the state of a disciple" (sāvakabhāvaṃ upagantukāmo).

DN 31, however, is not an example of this, for here the disciple spoken of is equated with a sotāpanna. This seems reasonable to me, for the sutta speaks of the disciple in question not being led astray by the four agati. If a worldling were intended here, then we should expect not a description but an exhortation: "The disciple should not let himself be led astray...!"
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:04 amDN 31, however, is not an example of this, for here the disciple spoken of is equated with a sotāpanna. This seems reasonable to me, for the sutta speaks of the disciple in question not being led astray by the four agati. If a worldling were intended here, then we should expect not a description but an exhortation: "The disciple should not let himself be led astray...!"
Thank you for your contribution Venerable Dhammanando however I find the above difficult to accept. I think any non-sotappana can practise the four agati. For example, most govt employees are expected to administer their duties with impartiality. Is there more to the four agati than I am inferring? Regards.
7. THE STATE LEADER
(A king or administrator)

D. Avoiding the biases: when an administrator is carrying out his functions, he should not allow the four biases, or deviations from righteousness, to interfere:

Chandagati: biased conduct on account of like
Dosagati: biased conduct on account of dislike
Mohagati: biased conduct on account of delusion or foolishness
Bhayagati: biased conduct on account of timidity and fear

https://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Part2.html
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Re: "Ariyasāvaka" in DN 31 for householders ???

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:42 am Thank you for your contribution Venerable Dhammanando however I find the above difficult to accept. I think any non-sotappana can practise the four agati.
And most puthujjanas can manage to refrain from murdering their mothers. Nonetheless it's only after arrival at stream-entry that one is guaranteed not to murder her, for it is only then that matricide (and the rest of the anantariyaka kammas) cease to be possibilities.

The four agatis are things by which the puthujjana and the sotāpanna might both be led astray. The difference is that the sotāpanna will be certain to recognise his error and correct it, while the puthujjana may or may not do so.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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