SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

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DooDoot
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SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali gurus

SN 41.6 & MN 44 contain the following passage:
Breathing is physical. It’s tied up with the body, that’s why breathing is a physical process.

Assāsapassāsā kho, gahapati, kāyikā. Ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro.

First you place the mind and keep it connected, then you break into speech. That’s why placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes.

Pubbe kho, gahapati, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṃ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.

Perception and feeling are mental. They’re tied up with the mind, that’s why perception and feeling are mental processes.

Saññā ca vedanā ca cetasikā. Ete dhammā cittappaṭibaddhā, tasmā saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn41.6/en/sujato
Paṭibaddha is explained as follows in the dictionaries:
Concise Pali English Dictionary
paṭibaddha
pp. of paṭibandhati
bound to; depent on; attracted on or by.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
paṭibaddha
adjective
bound to, in fetters or bonds, attracted to or by, dependent on DN.i.76; Vin.iv.302 (kāya˚); AN.v.87 (para˚); Dhp.284; Mil.102 (āvajjana˚); Pv-a.134 (˚jīvika dependent on him for a living)

Freq. in cpd. -citta affected enamoured, one’s heart bound in love Vin.iii.128 Vin.iv.18; Snp.37 (see Cnd.385), Snp.65; Pv-a.46, Pv-a.145 (˚tā f abstr.), Pv-a.151, Pv-a.159 (rañño with the king).

paṭi + baddha, pp. of bandh
I find the following issues with the above translation of SN 41.6 & MN 44, which is similar to other translations, namely:

(a) The sutta explanation of the vaci sankhara appears unambiguous; in that 'thinking' ('vaci sankhara') is the cause of speech; and speech (vaci) is an effect. Therefore, the term 'vaci sankhara' appears to refer a cause rather than to an effect.

(b) It seems obvious by numerous core standard suttas (such as MN 148, MN 38, etc) that perception & feeling are preceding causes for the citta (mind) to generate greed, hatred & delusion. Therefore, at least based on the core teachings, 'perception & feeling' (the 'citta sankhara') are causes and the state of the citta is an effect.

The above said, my Pali question is as follows:

Q: Taking the word 'paṭibaddha' to mean 'dependent on', are there any grammar rules in the Pali which prevent the following alternate translation, which expresses each 'sankhara' as a causal agent:
Breathing is bodily. The body depends upon it. That is why breathing is the kaya sankharo.

Breathing is bodily. This thing (this dhamma; the breathing), the body depends upon. That is why breathing is the kaya sankharo.

Assāsapassāsā kho, gahapati, kāyikā. Ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro.

First you place the mind and keep it connected, then you break into speech. That’s why placing the mind and keeping it connected are the verbal sankharo.

Pubbe kho, gahapati, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṃ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.

Perception and feeling are mental. The [emotionally quality of the] mind-heart depend on them. That is why perception and feeling are the mind-heart sankhara.

Saññā ca vedanā ca cetasikā. Ete dhammā cittappaṭibaddhā, tasmā saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro”ti.
Thank you :smile:
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Volo
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Re: SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

Post by Volo »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:01 amQ: Taking the word 'paṭibaddha' to mean 'dependent on', are there any grammar rules in the Pali which prevent the following alternate translation, which expresses each 'sankhara' as a causal agent:
Breathing is bodily. The body depends upon it. That is why breathing is the kaya sankharo.
I think, this wouldn't be correct. kāyappaṭibaddhā is a tappurisa compound. In Tappurisa any case relationships between its members are possible, except of Nom and Voc. If we translate "body depends/is dependent upon" that would require Nom kāya. Same for citta.
(b) It seems obvious by numerous core standard suttas (such as MN 148, MN 38, etc) that perception & feeling are preceding causes for the citta (mind) to generate greed, hatred & delusion. Therefore, at least based on the core teachings, 'perception & feeling' (the 'citta sankhara') are causes and the state of the citta is an effect.
Well, this depends on what we take as citta. I don't remember definition of citta in suttas, but it seems it is usually used in several ways including quite loose sense similar to the way we use "mind". But in Abhidhamma citta, viññāņa and mano are synonyms. If we take citta in such technical meaning, I think it would be correct to say perception and feeling are "caused" by citta, since for them to arise consciousness has to be aware of the object.

For breath it would probably be also correct to say that body is it's cause, since what is breath if not a particular movement of the body?
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Re: SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

Post by DooDoot »

Volovsky wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:17 pmI think, this wouldn't be correct. kāyappaṭibaddhā is a tappurisa compound. In Tappurisa any case relationships between its members are possible, except of Nom and Voc. If we translate "body depends/is dependent upon" that would require Nom kāya. Same for citta.
Ok. Thanks V. If that is the case, I would stick to VBB's original translation in his MN or Thanissaro's and Sujato's translation but not VBB's translation in his SN.
Volovsky wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:17 pmWell, this depends on what we take as citta. I don't remember definition of citta in suttas,
Citta is described everywhere, such in MN 10, Cittavagga, Pabhassara Sutta, MN 29, etc. It is related to defilements and their absence. Liberation is called "citta vimutti" and is liberation from defilements (and not liberation from perception & feeling).
Volovsky wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:17 pmFor breath it would probably be also correct to say that body is it's cause, since what is breath if not a particular movement of the body?
Most spiritual traditions highlight the breath because it is the sustainer of life & regular of the mind. The kaya sankhara is highlighted as the breath (and thus as something important). Thus it doesn't make much sense to highlight the breath but then give the breath a subordinate role in saying it depends on the body.

Anyway, since most translators translate as you have explained with tappurisa compound, it looks like i must accept this, even though it remains illogical to me. The vaci sankhara is clearly a causal agent and it is logical the other two sankharo are the same.

Regards :smile:
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Re: SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

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Volovsky wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:17 pm kāyappaṭibaddhā is a tappurisa compound.
Btw, why is it a tappurisa compound? Thanks

Or, also, what would be the Pali if it was "upon this dhamma the body depends". How would "the body depends" be written in Pali? Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

Post by Volo »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:22 am Btw, why is it a tappurisa compound?
It has a typical structure of Tappurisa: first member is directly related to the second ("on/with the body dependent"). As Duroiselle puts it:
§545. In these compounds the first member is a substantive in any case but the Nominative and the Vocative, qualifying, explaining or determining the last member.
But here Tappurisa is used as adjective. Maybe we can say Tappurisa used as Bahubihi (this also happens quite often).

Or what kind of compound do you think it is?
Or, also, what would be the Pali if it was "upon this dhamma the body depends". How would "the body depends" be written in Pali? Thanks
Maybe something like kāyo dhammappaṭibaddho/kāyo assāsapassāsappaṭibaddho.
Last edited by Volo on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

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Volovsky wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:24 amOr what kind of compound do you think it is?
I have no idea. But, yes, kāyappaṭibaddhā appears to be an adjective; which describes what the breathing is. As I posted, if your analysis is correct then I wouldn't translate "paṭibaddhā" as "dependent on". I think the general translations of "tied to" or "bound with" is better because it reflects an interconnectedness or interrelationship between breath & body. The bottom line is the kaya-sankharo is the breathing and the breathing is central to Anapanasati. All I know for sure is to say feeling & perception depend on the citta is wrong. I will think about what paṭibaddhā may alternately mean. Regards. :)
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Re: SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

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Volovsky wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:24 amMaybe something like kāyo dhammappaṭibaddho/kāyo assāsapassāsappaṭibaddho.
OK, what about this (however not so literally, given "binds" may not be the best word):
Breathing is physical. It binds the body, that’s why breathing is the kaya sankharo.

Assāsapassāsā kho, gahapati, kāyikā. Ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro
baddha1
bound, in bondage MN.i.275; SN.i.133; SN.iv.91; Snp.957 (interpreted as “baddhacara by Mnd.464); Dhp.324.
snared, trapped Ja.ii.153 Ja.iii.184; Ja.iv.251, Ja.iv.414.
made firm, settled, fastened bound (to a cert. place) Kp-a.60 (˚pitta, opp. abaddha˚)
contracted, acquired Vin.iii.96.
bound to addicted or attached to Snp.773 (bhavasāta˚, cp. Mnd.30)
put together, kneaded, made into cakes (of meal Ja.iii.343; Ja.v.46; Ja.vi.524.
bound together, linked clustered Dhp-a.i.304 kaṇṇika˚ (of thoughts).
set made up (of the mind) Dhp-a.i.11 (mānasaṃ te b.). Cp. ati˚, anu˚, a˚, ni˚, paṭi˚, vini˚, sam˚.
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Re: SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

Post by Volo »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:03 am this (however not so literally, given "binds" may not be the best word):
Breathing is physical. It binds the body, that’s why breathing is the kaya sankharo.

Assāsapassāsā kho, gahapati, kāyikā. Ete dhammā kāyappaṭibaddhā, tasmā assāsapassāsā kāyasaṅkhāro
But then you have active verb "binds" for the past participle paṭibaddhā ("bound", "dependent").
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Re: SN 41.6 & MN 44: translating kāyappaṭibaddhā in kāyasaṅkhāro ??

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Volovsky wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:33 am But then you have active verb "binds" for the past participle paṭibaddhā ("bound", "dependent").
Ok. Thanks again, V. :anjali:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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