Pali: asmi and atthi ???

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DooDoot
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Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali gurus

About the Pali word 'asmi', the PTS Pali English Dictionary says:
asmi

(I am) see atthi.
PTS Pali English Dictionary
atthi
to be, to exist.
Should the word "atthi" always include the sense of "asmi", namely, "I exist"? Or can "atthi" be completely impersonal & materialistic, such as "a rock exists"?

Thank you :smile:
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dylanj
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Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by dylanj »

they are the 1st & 3rd person of the same word
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by dylanj »

yes atthi can be used for inanimate things, it's like english "is"
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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DooDoot
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Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by DooDoot »

dylanj wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:36 am yes atthi can be used for inanimate things, it's like english "is"
Any reasoning or evidence from sutta to support this opinion? Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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dylanj
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Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by dylanj »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:08 am
dylanj wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:36 am yes atthi can be used for inanimate things, it's like english "is"
Any reasoning to support this opinion? Thanks
not an opinion. search "atthi" on suttacentral & see how it's used
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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dylanj
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Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by dylanj »

“Sir, they speak of this thing called ‘the world’. “‘Loko, loko’ti, bhante, vuccati. How do we define the world or what is known as the world?” Kittāvatā nu kho, bhante, loko vā assa lokapaññatti vā”ti? “Samiddhi, where there is the eye, sights, eye consciousness, and phenomena to be known by eye consciousness, there is the world or what is known as the world. “Yattha kho, samiddhi, atthi cakkhu, atthi rūpā, atthi cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, atthi cakkhuviññāṇaviññātabbā dhammā, atthi tattha loko vā lokapaññatti vāti … pe … Where there is the ear … nose … tongue … body … atthi jivhā … pe … Where there is the mind, thoughts, mind consciousness, and phenomena to be known by mind consciousness, there is the world or what is known as the world. atthi mano, atthi dhammā, atthi

manoviññāṇaṃ, atthi manoviññāṇaviññātabbā dhammā, atthi tattha loko vā lokapaññatti vā.

Where there is no eye, no sights, no eye consciousness, and no phenomena to be known by eye consciousness, there is no world or what is known as the world. Yattha ca kho, samiddhi, natthi cakkhu, natthi rūpā, natthi cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, natthi cakkhuviññāṇaviññātabbā dhammā, natthi tattha loko vā lokapaññatti vā … pe … Where there is no ear … nose … tongue … body … natthi
jivhā … pe … Where there is no mind, no thoughts, no mind consciousness, and no phenomena to be known by mind consciousness, there is no world or what is known as the world.” natthi mano, natthi dhammā, natthi manoviññāṇaṃ, natthi manoviññāṇaviññātabbā dhammā, natthi tattha loko vā lokapaññatti vā”ti.
Last edited by dylanj on Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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DooDoot
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Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by DooDoot »

With hoping to not sound ungrateful, it would be civil to include links of quotes made. Thanks :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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dylanj
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Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by dylanj »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:13 am With hoping to not sound ungrateful, it would be civil to include links of quotes made. Thanks :smile:

doesn't sound like that
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.68/en/sujato
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
User avatar
dylanj
Posts: 936
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:48 am
Location: San Francisco
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Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by dylanj »

Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by DooDoot »

Thanks Dylan. I didn't find this series of suttas convincing to show 'atthi' is without 'asmi' or a 'personal' sense (because the concoctions of "loka", "dukkha" and "Mara" I imagine depend on personality view; for example SN 12.44).
dylanj wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:20 am here's another

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.51/en/sujato
OK. Thanks. This sutta is more neutral & impersonal. It probably answers my question. Thanks again. :anjali:
There are things that are grounds for the awakening factor of mindfulness.
Atthi, bhikkhave, satisambojjhaṅgaṭṭhānīyā dhammā.

There is the settled mind.
Atthi, bhikkhave, cetaso vūpasamo

There are the elements of initiative, persistence, and exertion.
Atthi, bhikkhave, ārambhadhātu nikkamadhātu parakkamadhātu.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Pali: asmi and atthi ???

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:25 am I didn't find this series of suttas [to Venerable Samiddhi] convincing to show 'atthi' is without 'asmi' or a 'personal' sense because the concoctions of "loka", "dukkha", "a being" and "Mara" I imagine depend on personality view; for example SN 12.44.
Particularly SN 35.66, about what is "a being" ("satto"), which states:
Sir, they speak of this thing called a ‘being’.
satto’ti, bhante, vuccati.

How do we define a being or what is known as a being?
Kittāvatā nu kho, bhante, satto vā assa sattapaññatti vā”ti … pe …

Samiddhi, where there is the eye, sights, eye consciousness, and phenomena to be known by eye consciousness.... etc

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.65/en/sujato
Compare to SN 23.2, which is unambiguous, which emphasises "a being" is "clinging":
How is a being defined?

Rādha, when you cling, strongly cling, to desire, greed, relishing, and craving for form, then a being is spoken of...

https://suttacentral.net/sn23.2/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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