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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:16 am
by pitakele
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:31 pm
So kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘kāyapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti, jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayamāno ‘jīvitapariyantikaṃ vedanaṃ vedayāmī’ti pajānāti
so - he (personal pronoun, subject)
kāyapariyantikaṃ* - end-of-body or body ending (adjective)
jīvitapariyantikaṃ* - end-of-life or life ending (adjective)
vedanaṃ - feeling (noun, object)
vedayamāno - experiencing (present participle)
vedayāmi** - I am experiencing (present tense verb)
iti - thus (indeclinable)
pajānāti - knows (present tense verb)

* tappurisa or kammadhāraya compound - both adjectival
** vedayāmī’ti = vedayāmi iti - euphony

A literal translation:
He, experiencing an end-of-body feeling, knows thus, 'I am experiencing an end-of-body feeling.'
He, experiencing an end-of-life feeling, knows thus, 'I am experiencing an end-of-life feeling.'

A more fluid translation:
When experiencing a feeling associated with the ending of the body, he knows 'I am experiencing a feeling associated with the ending of the body.'
When experiencing a feeling associated with the ending of life, he knows 'I am experiencing a feeling associated with the ending of life.'

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:26 am
by DooDoot
pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:16 am
A more fluid translation:
When experiencing a feeling associated with the ending of the body, he knows 'I am experiencing a feeling associated with the ending of the body.'
When experiencing a feeling associated with the ending of life, he knows 'I am experiencing a feeling associated with the ending of life.'
Thank you Pitakele. The above is exactly how I thought. So what do you make of Bhikkhu Thanissaro's translation? Thanissaro has used "pariyantika" literally to mean "limited to" or "restricted to". However, it really doesn't make much sense when used in "jivita-pariyantika".

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:03 am
by Dmytro
pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:16 am
kāyapariyantikaṃ* - end-of-body or body ending (adjective)
Just of of curiosity, where from are such "translations"?

When I interpret the word, I look up the dictionary:
kāya-pariyantika, mfn. [cf. SWTF s.v. kāya­paryantika, q.v.], limited by the body, cf. kāyantika, q.v.; ~aṁ veda­naṁ vedayāmi, M III 244,34 (kāya­koṭikaṁ, Ps V 58,18) = S II 83,1 (kāyantikaṁ kāya­paricchinnaṁ, Spk II 78,31) = S V 319,25 = A II 198,35 (Mp III 176,9 = Spk II 78,31).
http://cpd.uni-koeln.de/search?article_id=26964
kāya-pariyantika, mfn. co-terminous with the body, coming to the end with the body.
A Dictionary of Pāli by Margaret Cone

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:20 am
by Dmytro
santa100 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:33 pm
Actually Ven. Bodhi and Thanissaro's versions are more accurate (Thanissaro's being the best imho). There're 2 separate connotations in 2 separate sentences. And Sujato's version makes one tend to interpret both as meaning the same thing: the death of an arahant.
Yes, Venerable Bodhi and Venerable Thanissaro actually translate the passage, while Sujato dumbs down the meaning to make it more poetic and understandable - and hence more pleasant to read.

As said in Ukkacita sutta:
"There is the case where in any assembly when the discourses of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are recited, the monks don't listen, don't lend ear, don't set their hearts on knowing them; don't regard them as worth grasping or mastering. But when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, artful in sound, artful in expression, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited, they listen, they lend ear, they set their hearts on knowing them; they regard them as worth grasping & mastering.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Seems like we are in for an era of dumbed down Dhamma paraphrases, made to please the reader.

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:35 am
by pitakele
Dmytro wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:03 am
pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:16 am
kāyapariyantikaṃ* - end-of-body or body ending (adjective)
Just of of curiosity, where from are such "translations"?
I translated from memory, but also checked the M 140 commentary where the meaning for kāyapariyantikaṃ is kāyakoṭikaṃ, 'end of body'.
https://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0203a.att3.xml
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:26 am

So what do you make of Bhikkhu Thanissaro's translation? Thanissaro has used "pariyantika" literally to mean "limited to" or "restricted to". However, it really doesn't make much sense when used in "jivita-pariyantika".
The idea of 'limited' (or 'terminating' as per Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation) also doesn't make much sense to me. My understanding is that the latter part of the sutta is about the arahant having clear comprehension of vedanā in the final moments before realizing anupādisesa nibbāna.

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:09 am
by Dmytro
pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:35 am
I translated from memory, but also checked the M 140 commentary where the meaning for kāyapariyantikaṃ is kāyakoṭikaṃ, 'end of body'.

https://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0203a.att3.xml
It's not 'end of body', it's "ending with the (end of) body", as explained further:
Kāyapariyantikanti kāyakoṭikaṃ. Yāva kāyapavattā uppajjitvā tato paraṃ anuppajjanavedananti attho.
pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:35 am
The idea of 'limited' (or 'terminating' as per Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation) also doesn't make much sense to me. My understanding is that the latter part of the sutta is about the arahant having clear comprehension of vedanā in the final moments before realizing anupādisesa nibbāna.
The urge to make complex meanings more understandable is a key driving force in oversimplification of original meaning, with its replacement by arbitrary personal opinion, in so-called "Early Buddhism".

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:42 am
by ToVincent
Dmytro wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:09 am
Seems like we are in for an era of dumbed down Dhamma paraphrases, made to please the reader.
......
The urge to make complex meanings more understandable is a key driving force in oversimplification of original meaning, with its replacement by arbitrary personal opinion, in so-called "Early Buddhism".

:goodpost:
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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:46 am
by Dinsdale
santa100 wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:33 pm
DooDoot wrote:I sense Bhikkhu Sujato's translation is the most realistic; where as the translations of Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanissaro sound vague or obtuse to me. For example, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations appears to infer the feeling is terminating rather than the body is terminating.
Actually Ven. Bodhi and Thanissaro's versions are more accurate (Thanissaro's being the best imho). There're 2 separate connotations in 2 separate sentences. And Sujato's version makes one tend to interprete both as meaning the same thing: the death of an arahant. Bodhi/Thanissaro's versions maintain the 2 separate connotations:
MN 140 wrote:1. When sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.'
Doesn't mean "the body is terminating". It means that the arhant only experiences bodily feelings, while worldlings experience both mental and bodily feelings (ie. the Double-arrows/Double-pains simile of SN 36.6)
2. When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.'
This is the end-of-life meaning. The arahant continues to experience feeling only as far as the body with its life faculty continues, but not beyond that.
:goodpost:

Good analysis, particularly with reference to the Arrow Sutta.

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:54 am
by DooDoot
:candle:

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:56 am
by pitakele
Dmytro wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:09 am
pitakele wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:35 am
M 140 commentary where the meaning for kāyapariyantikaṃ is kāyakoṭikaṃ, 'end of body'.

https://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0203a.att3.xml
It's not 'end of body', it's "ending with the (end of) body", as explained further:
Kāyapariyantikanti kāyakoṭikaṃ. Yāva kāyapavattā uppajjitvā tato paraṃ anuppajjanavedananti attho.
Of course, it is vedanā ending with the ending with body. I don't really see what different meaning you are trying to apply. I was going to speculate last post that a better translation could be 'final ending of body' (as per 'antima deha'), but I wish to avoid leading in to rebirth type discussions at present.

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:00 am
by Dinsdale
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:54 am
I would like to thank everyone for the contributions but it appears to become unsubstantiated sectarianism.
So if people don't agree with your personal interpretation, it is "unsubstantiated sectarianism"? :shrug:

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:17 am
by DooDoot
Dmytro wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:20 am
Yes, Venerable Bodhi and Venerable Thanissaro actually translate the passage...
hi Dmytro

I started the thread because Bhikkhu Bodhi makes it sounds like the feeling is terminating rather than the body is terminating. As for Thanissaro, I have no issues with the translation "a feeling limited to the body" but, as I posted, it does not really make sense when it says: "a feeling limited to life". "Life" is not mentioned in the suttas as a sense object upon which feeling arises.

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:09 pm
by ToVincent
Why is it that none of the translators included uddhaṃ/ūrdhva in "paraṃ maraṇā uddhaṃ", in their translations ?

"The upper regions beyond death" - (beyond the salayatanani - the six fields of sensory experience).
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Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:24 am
by DooDoot
ToVincent wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:09 pm
Why is it that none of the translators included uddhaṃ/ūrdhva in "paraṃ maraṇā uddhaṃ", in their translations ?
I started on a topic on this, here: viewtopic.php?t=31718

Re: Translating a MN 140 passage

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:52 am
by ToVincent
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:24 am
ToVincent wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:09 pm
Why is it that none of the translators included uddhaṃ/ūrdhva in "paraṃ maraṇā uddhaṃ", in their translations ?
I started on a topic on this, here: viewtopic.php?t=31718
The Dhātuvibhanga-sutta and its parallels (MĀ 162, D (4094) or Q (5595),) agree that someone who has reached this level of detachment and experiences feelings limited by the body or by life will simply reflect that after death all that is felt will come to an end, similar to an oil lamp that will be extinguished once the wick and the oil are used up.
This part does not have a counterpart in T 511 (short text).
(Analayo.)

With a proper lexicography - (and some reserve on grammar [meaning prevails over the latter anyway] - the proper translation would be:

One finds out that, with the disunion from the body, with the end of the living being (viz. that wishes to live), in the upper region beyond death, all that is sensed, not being an object of pleasure (abhinandita,) will become cold in this world [idheva/iha].

More here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32922&sid=7d691608 ... 20#p489476 on jīvita, jīvita-pari-yanti-kaṃ & jīvita-pari-(y)-ādānā
(Please note that in the above link, I added "(of senses)" at the end of the translation. It is incorrect. Idheva/इह iha, refers to "this place", "this world" = uddhaṃ (upper region).

Does the Humean & Lockean empiristic sensationalist philosophy, that prevails in "western buddhism", disallow a quasi spiritual (liberated citta) world, beyond senses and materiality, to the point of occulting uddhaṃ?

When we discuss Pali, all the words must be translated. And we might wonder why some are not.
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