Knowing and Seeing

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

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rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:53 am

pegembara wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:38 am
It seems one who has right samadhi will automatically have the right knowing and seeing.
"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think it is quite important that the Sutta draws a clear distinction between knowing and seeing things as they are and the realization of knowledge & vision of release.

In Sutta such as ;
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
The referent for what is known and seen is the nature of consciousness. Therefore it is actually acceptable evidence to me for a case of a person knowing & seeing before the realization of knowledge & vision of release.

I am still not sure tho because the passages;
  1. "For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.
  • "For a person who feels disenchantment, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I grow dispassionate.' It is in the nature of things that a person who feels disenchantment grows dispassionate.
  • "For a dispassionate person, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I realize the knowledge & vision of release.' It is in the nature of things that a dispassionate person realizes the knowledge & vision of release.
Can be interpreted to mean that if a person realizes 1 he realizes 2 and having realized 2 he realizes 3, automatically or in rapid succession
Alternatively it can be interpreted to be more of a gradual a process

Two things are certain imo;
1) One can speak of knowing & seeing to the extent of learning the doctrine, in as far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, speaking the words of knowledge.
2) One can speak of knowing & seeing to the extent of entering & dwelling in a Dhamma, having realized it for oneself through direct knowledge.

It is still not entirely clear to me where the cut-off between a Dhamma-Follower and a Stream-Enterer is.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:09 am

Especially in relation to
6. "The eight persons extolled by virtuous men constitute four pairs. They are the disciples of the Buddha and are worthy of offerings.
I've seen the interpretation of;

1. One working to realize the 1st path and the one who has realized it
2. ...2nd path...
3. ...3rd path...
4. ... 4t path ...

Seems like it would mean that the Dhamma-Follower and Faith-Follower are the Ones working to realize the 1st Path and the Stream Enterer being the one who has realized it and also being the one working to realize 2nd path.

Following that interpreation it would seem like the stream-enterer would have attained the full extent of knowing and seeing and having realized by direct knowledge the Four Noble Truths.

I think this is also supported by the
14. “Bhikkhus, there are seven kinds of persons to be found existing in the world. What seven? They are: one liberated-in-both ways, one liberated-by-wisdom, a body-witness, one attained-to-view, one liberated-by-faith, a Dhamma-follower, and a faith-follower.
Because neither the the Stream Enterer nor the Sakidagami or Anagamis are on that list whereas the Dhamma and Faith Followers are and afaik according to the Abhidhamma the only ones on that list who have not attained the fruition.
  1. 1. the faith-devotee (saddhanusari),
    Herein, monks, some person has not reached with his own (mental) body those peaceful immaterial deliverances transcending material form: nor after seeing with wisdom, have his cankers been destroyed. [1] But he has a certain degree of faith in the Tathagata, a certain degree of devotion to him, and he has these qualities -- the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. This person, monks, is called a faith-devotee. (M.i,479)

    The Puggalapannatti (p 182) defines the faith-devotee from a different angle as a disciple practicing for the fruit of stream-entry in whom the faculty of faith is predominant and who develops the noble path led by faith. It adds that when he is established in the fruit he becomes one liberated by faith.
  • 2. the one liberated by faith (saddhavimutta)
    The one liberated by faith is strictly and literally defined as a noble disciple at the six intermediate levels, from the fruit of stream-entry through to the path of arahatship, who lacks the immaterial jhanas and has a predominance of the faith faculty.

    The Buddha explains the one liberated by faith as follows:

    Herein, monks, some person has not reached with his own (mental) body those peaceful immaterial deliverances transcending material form; but having seen with wisdom, some of his cankers have been destroyed, and his faith in the Tathagata is settled, deeply rooted, well established. This person, monks, is called one liberated by faith. (M.i,478)
    ...
    The Puggalapnnatti states (pp.184-85) that the person liberated by faith is one who understands the Four Noble Truths, has seen and verified by means of wisdom the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata, and having seen with wisdom has eliminated some of his cankers. However, he has not done so as easily as the ditthipatta, the person attained to understanding, whose progress is easier due to his superior wisdom. The fact that the one liberated by faith has destroyed only some of this cankers implies that he has advanced beyond the first path but not yet reached the final fruit, the fruit of arahatship.
  • 3. the body-witness (kayasakkhi)
    The body-witness is a noble disciple at the six intermediate levels, from the fruit of stream-entry to the path of arahatship, who has a predominance of the faculty of concentration and can obtain the immaterial jhanas. The sutta explanation reads:

    And what person, monks is a body-witness? Herein, monks, some person has reached with his own (mental) body those peaceful immaterial deliverances transcending material form, and having seen with wisdom, some of his cankers having been destroyed. This person, monks, is called a body-witness. (M.i,478)
  • 4. the one liberated in both ways (ubhatobhagavimutta)
    One who is liberated in both ways is an arahat who has completely destroyed the defilements and possesses the immaterial attainments. The commentaries explain the name "liberated in both ways" as meaning "through the immaterial attainment he is liberated from the material body and through the path (of arahatship) he is liberated from the mental body" (MA.ii,131). The sutta defines this type of disciple thus:

    And what person, monks, is liberated in both ways? Herein, monks, someone has reached with his own (mental) body those peaceful immaterial deliverances transcending material form, and having seen with wisdom, his cankers are destroyed. This person, monks, is called liberated in both ways. (M.i,477)
  • 5. the truth-devotee ( dhammanusari)
    The truth-devotee is a disciple on the first path in whom the faculty of wisdom is predominant. The Buddha explains the truth-devotee as follows:

    Herein, monks, some person has not reached with his own (mental) body those peaceful immaterial deliverances transcending material form; nor, after seeing with wisdom, have his cankers been destroyed. But the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata are accepted by him through mere reflection, and he has these qualities -- the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. This person, monks, is called a truth-devotee. (M.i,479)

    The Puggalapannatti (p.185) defines the truth-devotee as one practicing for realization of the fruit of stream-entry in whom the faculty of wisdom is predominant, and who develops the path led by wisdom
  • 6. the one attained to understanding (ditthipatta)
    The one attained to understanding is a noble disciple at the six intermediate levels who lacks the immaterial jhanas and has a predominance of the wisdom faculty. The Buddha explains:

    And what person, monks, is the one attained to understanding? Herein, monks someone has not reached with his own mental body those peaceful immaterial deliverances transcending material form, but having seen with wisdom some of his cankers are destroyed, and the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata have been seen and verified by him with wisdom. This person, monks, is called the one attained to understanding. (M.i,478)

    The Puggalapannatti (p.185) defines the one attained to understanding as a person who understands the Four Noble Truths, has seen and verified by means of wisdom the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata, and having seen with wisdom has eliminated some of his cankers.
  • 7. the one liberated by wisdom (pannavimutta)
    The one liberated by wisdom is an arahat who does not obtain the immaterial attainments.
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/jhanas/jhanas06.htm
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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