what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

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frank k
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what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by frank k »

the last words of the Buddha: (ven. Thanissaro trans.)
“I exhort you, monks: All fabrications are subject to decay. Reach consummation through heedfulness.” That was the Tathāgata’s last statement.

the pali:
“handa dāni, bhikkhave, āmantayāmi vo —
‘vaya-dhammā
saṅkhārā,
appamādena sampādethā’ti.
ayaṃ tathāgatassa
pacchimā vācā”.

my word for word translation:
“I exhort you, monks:
'decay,--[as a natural law of]-Dhamma;
fabrications [are subject to that law];
assiduously (you should)-accomplish [The Goal].”
those (were the) tathāgata's
final words.”

For starters Dhammā is plural nominative correct?

second question, is sampadetha (accomplish) referring back to the previous sentence or an unnamed object?
I interpret sampadetha here as meaning one should accomplish the noble eightfold path [as the unnamed object]. But grammatically, is it supposed to refer to previous sentence, such as one should accomplish the full understanding of vaya dhamma?
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Assaji
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by Assaji »

frank k wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:00 pm
For starters Dhammā is plural nominative correct?
No, it's an adjective.
second question, is sampadetha (accomplish) referring back to the previous sentence or an unnamed object?
No.
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Volo
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by Volo »

Dhamma here has meaning "the nature of", not doctrine. So, it will be "the decay-naturing [are] formations". sampādetha is an imperative 2nd person plural referring to the monks. As usually the vowel before "ti" is lengthened, so we have long ā: sampādethā’ti.
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by mikenz66 »

For a selection of suttas where dhammā is used in this way, see Bhikkhu Bodhi's introductions to his translations, such as linked here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/tr ... u=mikenz66

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Assaji
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by Assaji »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:36 pm For a selection of suttas where dhammā is used in this way, see Bhikkhu Bodhi's introductions to his translations, such as linked here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/tr ... u=mikenz66
Yes, there's one more passage at:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5584#p422383
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks, I didn't manage to locate that post by searching... :thinking:

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thang
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by thang »

frank k wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:00 pm ‘vaya-dhammā saṅkhārā,
appamādena sampādethā
For starters Dhammā is plural nominative correct? second question, is sampadetha (accomplish) referring back to the previous sentence or an unnamed object? I interpret sampadetha here as meaning one should accomplish the noble eightfold path [as the unnamed object]. But grammatically, is it supposed to refer to previous sentence, such as one should accomplish the full understanding of vaya dhamma?
As I have heard the word 'Dhamma' has several meanings.
1. The Buddhas Teaching : eg- Buddha-dhamma-sangha, dhammam sunatha, a-dhamma, dhammacari
2. Natural Laws (wholesome or unwholesome) : eg- kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, aparihaniya dhamma, hana bhagiya dhamma, carana dhamma, sappurisa dhamma, asappurisa dhamma
3. Phenomenon/thing : mano pubangama dhamma, rupa dhamma, nama dhamma

..may be there are more meanings.

Here "vayadhamma" seems to be "Decaying things/ decaying phenomena".
So 'vayadhamma sankhara' means "The preparations are decaying things".

"Sampadetha" means accomplish. Object of accomplish is hidden. It cannot be the previous sentence.
I think the meaning is "accomplish what the Buddha asked you to accomplish". (accomplish sila-samadhi-panna or attangika magga)
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by DooDoot »

thang wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:31 amAs I have heard the word 'Dhamma' has several meanings.
This may be so but we still must discern the correct meaning in the context.
thang wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:31 amHere "vayadhamma" seems to be "Decaying things/ decaying phenomena". So 'vayadhamma sankhara' means "The preparations are decaying things".
I have heard the word 'sankhara' has several meanings.
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by wuckertrhea »

Thanks, I searched but couldn't find the post... basketball stars
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by Kumara »

Volo wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:25 pm Dhamma here has meaning "the nature of", not doctrine. So, it will be "the decay-naturing [are] formations".
Agree. I'd translate "vayadhammā saṅkhārā" this way though:
of decaying-nature are fabrications
OR
of the nature to decay are fabrications
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by confusedlayman »

when u think of chocalate, and then u think of a car..

when thinking of car, where does previous thought formation of thinking of cholacate go? it just disappear completly.. so its decayed and gone without trace (Dont think it has any intrinstic object in thought)
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Re: what 'dhamma' is exactly in vaya-dhamma?

Post by KellyP »

In the Pali passage you provided, the word "Dhammā" is indeed plural nominative, referring to the fabrications or phenomena.

Regarding the word "sampādethā" (commonly translated as "accomplish" or "reach"), it is an imperative verb in the second person plural form. It is used as a command or exhortation to the monks. In this context, it is generally understood as referring to the attainment of the goal or the realization of the Noble Eightfold Path. While it is not explicitly mentioned what specifically should be accomplished, it is commonly interpreted as the complete realization of the path leading to the cessation of suffering.

The term "vaya-dhammā" can be understood as "phenomena subject to decay" or "fabrications subject to impermanence." "Vaya" refers to decay, aging, or impermanence, while "dhammā" refers to phenomena or elements of existence. Together, "vaya-dhammā" emphasizes the transient and impermanent nature of all conditioned phenomena.

It is important to note that interpretations may vary among different translators and scholars, and the understanding of the passage can be influenced by the broader context and teachings of Buddhism.

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