sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

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frank k
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sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by frank k »

vens' bodhi, thanissaro, nanamoli have sankappa as "intention" or "resolve".

MN 117 we have vitakka as part of the samma sankappa definition, and in Ab Vibhangha first jhana vitakka definition, includes "samma sankappa".

So in several contexts, sankappa is equivalent to thinking/vitakka.

Can you point me to the passages where sankappa is not thinking, but something prior to thinking, "resolves" or "intention"?

Ven. Sujato translates sankappa as "thought". I don't know if he does that everywhere. But since he did translate the entire 4 nikayas, if he consistently used "thought"=sankappa everywhere then the "resolve"/intention nuance didn't stand out for him to differentiate in his translation.
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frank k
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by frank k »

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/mn ... layo/10308

if you note the difference between MN 78 and its parallel in chinese, follow where "right sankappa" drops out, for MN 78, it's in 2nd jhana this happens, whereas in MN 179, its 4th jhana.

To me, that might mean sankappa was viewed in the parallel as something lower level than vitakka&vicara, that could survive into 2nd jhana and 3rd. so they probably interpreted sankappa as intention/resolve rather than "thinking".
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:30 pm Can you point me to the passages where sankappa is not thinking, but something prior to thinking, "resolves" or "intention"?
See the terms rūpa-saṅkappa ... dhamma-saṅkappa in the SN's Dhātusaṃyutta.

Also there's the Vinaya's definition of cittasaṅkappa in connection with the third pārājika rule:
Rule:
‘If a monk intentionally kills a human being or seeks an instrument of death for him or praises death or incites someone to die, saying, “Good man, what’s the point of this wretched and difficult life? Death is better for you than life!”— thinking (cittamano) and intending (cittasaṅkappo) thus, if he praises death in various ways or incites someone to die— he too is expelled and not in communion.’

Definitions:
Cittamano ti yaṃ cittaṃ taṃ mano, yaṃ mano taṃ cittaṃ.

Cittasaṅkappo ti maraṇasaññī maraṇacetano maraṇādhippāyo.


Thinking: mind and thought are equivalent.
Intending: perceiving death, intending death, aiming at death.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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_anicca_
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by _anicca_ »

You have the resolve (sankappa) to apply your thoughts to the meditation object (vitakka).

They are not equivalent, but one could be a prerequisite to another.
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SarathW
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:51 pm
frank k wrote: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:30 pm Can you point me to the passages where sankappa is not thinking, but something prior to thinking, "resolves" or "intention"?
See the terms rūpa-saṅkappa ... dhamma-saṅkappa in the SN's Dhātusaṃyutta.

Also there's the Vinaya's definition of cittasaṅkappa in connection with the third pārājika rule:
Rule:
‘If a monk intentionally kills a human being or seeks an instrument of death for him or praises death or incites someone to die, saying, “Good man, what’s the point of this wretched and difficult life? Death is better for you than life!”— thinking (cittamano) and intending (cittasaṅkappo) thus, if he praises death in various ways or incites someone to die— he too is expelled and not in communion.’

Definitions:
Cittamano ti yaṃ cittaṃ taṃ mano, yaṃ mano taṃ cittaṃ.

Cittasaṅkappo ti maraṇasaññī maraṇacetano maraṇādhippāyo.


Thinking: mind and thought are equivalent.
Intending: perceiving death, intending death, aiming at death.
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santa100
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by santa100 »

frank k wrote:vens' bodhi, thanissaro, nanamoli have sankappa as "intention" or "resolve".
Ven. Bodhi's note on AN 9.14:
AN 9.14 wrote:Samiddhi, on being asked, ‘Based on what do thoughts & resolves arise in a person?’ you have answered, ‘Based on name & form.’

Note: Mp: "Intentions and thoughts are thoughts that are intentions" (sankappavitakka ti sankappabhuta vitakka). This is said because the two words, sankappa and vitakka, are used almost interchangeably in the texts.
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by Zom »

Also there's the Vinaya's definition of cittasaṅkappa in connection with the third pārājika rule
Note: Mp: "Intentions and thoughts are thoughts that are intentions" (sankappavitakka ti sankappabhuta vitakka). This is said because the two words, sankappa and vitakka, are used almost interchangeably in the texts.
Bhante, can you recall any context where vitakka doesn't suggest even slightest intention or inclination but is just a neutral thinking about something?

(upd: maybe this "there are fine corruptions: thoughts of family, country, and being looked up to" -- https://suttacentral.net/an3.101/en/sujato)
Dr Wicks
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by Dr Wicks »

Sankappa is the second step in the noble eight fold path. I think it can be defined as the "mental feeling" following what one has perceived through the five sensors- eye, ear....Based on this perception one will act through body/speech/mind leading to various conflicts and or kamma. Vittaka/vichara on the other hand is forcibly thinking about some aspect and finding the correct answer. This may lead one to take some action through body/speech/mind and if the answer was a good one your action may be a good one.
SarathW
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by SarathW »

Based on views (Dithi) you create a Sankappa. Based on Sankappa you create speech (Vaca) and action (Kamma tha) so it appears Sankappa means mental formations (Ctta Sankhara)
Vitakka is only a small part of Sankhara.
Just for matter of interest in Sri Lanka we used the word Sankalpa to mean hypothesis.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
coconut
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by coconut »

SarathW wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:44 am Based on views (Dithi) you create a Sankappa. Based on Sankappa you create speech (Vaca) and action (Kamma tha) so it appears Sankappa means mental formations (Ctta Sankhara)
Vitakka is only a small part of Sankhara.
Just for matter of interest in Sri Lanka we used the word Sankalpa to mean hypothesis.
Do you have a sutta source that say sankappa comes from views (ditthi)? (Aside from the N8FP formula)

There are suttas that say thoughts come from perception.

edit: according to ven varado ditthi means perception. Therefore ditthi does not mean "belief", interesting.
SarathW
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by SarathW »

coconut wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:53 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:44 am Based on views (Dithi) you create a Sankappa. Based on Sankappa you create speech (Vaca) and action (Kamma tha) so it appears Sankappa means mental formations (Ctta Sankhara)
Vitakka is only a small part of Sankhara.
Just for matter of interest in Sri Lanka we used the word Sankalpa to mean hypothesis.
Do you have a sutta source that say sankappa comes from views (ditthi)? (Aside from the N8FP formula)

There are suttas that say thoughts come from perception.

edit: according to ven varado ditthi means perception. Therefore ditthi does not mean "belief", interesting.
They are my personal opinion even though you can make some relationship to Sutta.
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