sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

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frank k
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sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by frank k » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:30 pm

vens' bodhi, thanissaro, nanamoli have sankappa as "intention" or "resolve".

MN 117 we have vitakka as part of the samma sankappa definition, and in Ab Vibhangha first jhana vitakka definition, includes "samma sankappa".

So in several contexts, sankappa is equivalent to thinking/vitakka.

Can you point me to the passages where sankappa is not thinking, but something prior to thinking, "resolves" or "intention"?

Ven. Sujato translates sankappa as "thought". I don't know if he does that everywhere. But since he did translate the entire 4 nikayas, if he consistently used "thought"=sankappa everywhere then the "resolve"/intention nuance didn't stand out for him to differentiate in his translation.
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frank k
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by frank k » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:42 pm

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/mn ... layo/10308

if you note the difference between MN 78 and its parallel in chinese, follow where "right sankappa" drops out, for MN 78, it's in 2nd jhana this happens, whereas in MN 179, its 4th jhana.

To me, that might mean sankappa was viewed in the parallel as something lower level than vitakka&vicara, that could survive into 2nd jhana and 3rd. so they probably interpreted sankappa as intention/resolve rather than "thinking".
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Dhammanando
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:51 pm

frank k wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:30 pm
Can you point me to the passages where sankappa is not thinking, but something prior to thinking, "resolves" or "intention"?
See the terms rūpa-saṅkappa ... dhamma-saṅkappa in the SN's Dhātusaṃyutta.

Also there's the Vinaya's definition of cittasaṅkappa in connection with the third pārājika rule:
Rule:
‘If a monk intentionally kills a human being or seeks an instrument of death for him or praises death or incites someone to die, saying, “Good man, what’s the point of this wretched and difficult life? Death is better for you than life!”— thinking (cittamano) and intending (cittasaṅkappo) thus, if he praises death in various ways or incites someone to die— he too is expelled and not in communion.’

Definitions:
Cittamano ti yaṃ cittaṃ taṃ mano, yaṃ mano taṃ cittaṃ.

Cittasaṅkappo ti maraṇasaññī maraṇacetano maraṇādhippāyo.


Thinking: mind and thought are equivalent.
Intending: perceiving death, intending death, aiming at death.

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_anicca_
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by _anicca_ » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:40 pm

You have the resolve (sankappa) to apply your thoughts to the meditation object (vitakka).

They are not equivalent, but one could be a prerequisite to another.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

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SarathW
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:49 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:51 pm
frank k wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:30 pm
Can you point me to the passages where sankappa is not thinking, but something prior to thinking, "resolves" or "intention"?
See the terms rūpa-saṅkappa ... dhamma-saṅkappa in the SN's Dhātusaṃyutta.

Also there's the Vinaya's definition of cittasaṅkappa in connection with the third pārājika rule:
Rule:
‘If a monk intentionally kills a human being or seeks an instrument of death for him or praises death or incites someone to die, saying, “Good man, what’s the point of this wretched and difficult life? Death is better for you than life!”— thinking (cittamano) and intending (cittasaṅkappo) thus, if he praises death in various ways or incites someone to die— he too is expelled and not in communion.’

Definitions:
Cittamano ti yaṃ cittaṃ taṃ mano, yaṃ mano taṃ cittaṃ.

Cittasaṅkappo ti maraṇasaññī maraṇacetano maraṇādhippāyo.


Thinking: mind and thought are equivalent.
Intending: perceiving death, intending death, aiming at death.
Sadhu!
I learned something this morning.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: sankappa equivalent with vitakka or not?

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:58 pm

frank k wrote:vens' bodhi, thanissaro, nanamoli have sankappa as "intention" or "resolve".
Ven. Bodhi's note on AN 9.14:
AN 9.14 wrote:Samiddhi, on being asked, ‘Based on what do thoughts & resolves arise in a person?’ you have answered, ‘Based on name & form.’

Note: Mp: "Intentions and thoughts are thoughts that are intentions" (sankappavitakka ti sankappabhuta vitakka). This is said because the two words, sankappa and vitakka, are used almost interchangeably in the texts.

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