Garava Sutta - Pali translation assistance

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DooDoot
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Garava Sutta - Pali translation assistance

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 09, 2018 6:36 am

Dear friends

I am hoping for assistance in Pali pertaining to the Garava Sutta, within which I have included my personal assumptions highlighted in color.

Per Bhikkhu Sujato:
All Buddhas in the past,
Ye ca atītā sambuddhā,

the Buddhas of the future,
ye ca buddhā anāgatā;

and the Buddha at present—
Yo cetarahi sambuddho,

destroyer [adjective???] of the sorrows of many—
bahūnaṃ soka nāsano.

(all) respecting the true teaching
Sabbe saddhammagaruno [adjective ???],

they did live, they do live,
vihaṃsu viharanti [verb] ca;

and they also will live.
Tathāpi viharissanti [verb],

This is the nature of the Buddhas.
esā buddhāna dhammatā.

Therefore someone who loves themselves,
Tasmā hi attakāmena [adjective],

aspiring to transcendence,
mahattamabhikaṅkhatā [verb];

should respect the true teaching,
Saddhammo garukātabbo [pt.p. of garukaroti; verb; Potential Participle]

remembering the Buddhas’ teaching.
saraṃ [present particle; verb; sarati] buddhāna sāsanan”ti.
My questions:

1. Is "nāsano" in "sokanāsano" an adjective?

2. Is "garuno" in "sabbe saddhammagaruno" an "adjective" rather than a "verb", thus, "all respecters of the true teaching"?

3. Is "kāmena" in "attakāmena" an adjective; thus possibly "someone who is a lover of oneself"?

4. Both "sabbe saddhammagaruno" and "saddhammo garukātabbo" appear to be phrases in the 3rd person. "Dhamma" is "masculine". My attempts at determining the case of "dhamma" end up the opposite of the Pali in both cases. What is the reason for the difference "dhamma" vs "dhammo"?

Thank you

:anjali:

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Dhammanando
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Re: Garava Sutta - Pali translation assistance

Post by Dhammanando » Wed May 09, 2018 8:44 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:36 am
1. Is "nāsano" in "sokanāsano" an adjective?
It’s a participle from the verb nāseti, the causative of nassati. A Pali participle can function as an adjective or a noun, just as in English:

The running man tripped over.
The running was smooth at Ascot.

Murderers are damned.
The damned go to hell.

And so a translator has to decide in each context whether an adjective or a noun would make the better fit. In some cases this is very easy. For example, if there isn’t any noun or pronoun that the participle could be qualifying, then it must be a noun itself. In other cases it’s quite difficult or even impossible to determine with certainty. For example, there are numerous grammatically feasible ways of translating the “Namo tassa...” formula, since the words bhagavato, arahato and sammāsambuddhassa can each be construed as either a noun or as an adjective:

Homage to the fortunate one, the worthy one, the perfectly-awakened-one.
Homage to the fortunate, worthy perfectly-awakened-one.
Homage to the fortunate one who is worthy and perfectly awakened.

Etc., etc.


In the present case it's about equally plausible to treat sokanāsano as an adjective qualifying sambuddho or as a noun in its own right. The former is the choice of Vens. Bodhi and Thanissaro:
The Buddhas of the past,
The future Buddhas,
And he who is the Buddha now,
Removing the sorrow of many—
(Bodhi, Numerical Discourses)
while the latter is favoured by Ven. Sujāto along with the Thai translators of both Mahachula and Mahamakut Universities.


I’ll address the other questions later unless someone beats me to it.

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Re: Garava Sutta - Pali translation assistance

Post by Dhammanando » Wed May 09, 2018 1:36 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:36 am
2. Is "garuno" in "sabbe saddhammagaruno" an "adjective" rather than a "verb", thus, "all respecters of the true teaching"?
I think what you mean to ask is whether it’s a noun (‘respecter’) rather than an adjective (‘respecting’). In which case the answer is no, it’s an adjective. See definition (c) of ‘garu’ in the PED.
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:36 am
3. Is "kāmena" in "attakāmena" an adjective; thus possibly "someone who is a lover of oneself"?
Again I think you’re saying adjective when you mean noun. It is indeed a noun. The commentator Dhammapāla gives a sixfold definition of kāma in his Paramatthadīpanī. In the case of the compound attakāma the relevant sense of kāma is hitacchanda, ‘desire for welfare’. And so attakāma is ‘one desirous of his own welfare’. The -ena ending makes it instrumental: ‘by one desirous of his own welfare [should the Saddhamma be revered]’. In practice, however, all translators have chosen to make into an active rather than a passive sentence in English: ‘One desirous of his own welfare should revere the Saddhamma.’
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:36 am
4. Both "sabbe saddhammagaruno" and "saddhammo garukātabbo" appear to be phrases in the 3rd person. "Dhamma" is "masculine". My attempts at determining the case of "dhamma" end up the opposite of the Pali in both cases. What is the reason for the difference "dhamma" vs "dhammo"?
When a noun is used as the initial or medial item in a compound it will most often take its pre-inflected form (i.e., the form in which it is listed in most dictionaries). And so sāvakānaṃ saṅgha (community of disciples), for example, will become sāvakasaṅgha, not sāvakānaṃsaṅgha. In the case of saddhammagaruno, the compound is to be analysed as saddhamme (locative singular) + garuno. When made into a compound saddhamme reverts to its pre-inflected form: saddhamma.

As for saddhammo, this is in the nominative case as the subject-patient of a passive sentence: saddhammo garukātabbo, “the Good Dhamma should be revered.” But as mentioned already, most translators have opted to translate it as the object of an active sentence.

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Re: Garava Sutta - Pali translation assistance

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 09, 2018 8:53 pm

Thank you so much Venerable Dhammanando. I will read over everything you wrote thoroughly later. Often I when I refer to an adjective I intend on referring to an adjective, which shows how confused I am.

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Re: Garava Sutta - Pali translation assistance

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 10, 2018 6:22 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 1:36 pm
As for saddhammo, this is in the nominative case as the subject-patient of a passive sentence: saddhammo garukātabbo, “the Good Dhamma should be revered.” But as mentioned already, most translators have opted to translate it as the object of an active sentence.
OK. Also, since the masculine "dhammo" above ending in "o" can only be nominative (due to the suffix rules), it is nominative. Therefore, the following must be a similar Future Passive Participle sentence (I am browsing Pāḷi Grammar by Bhikkhu Ānandajoti):
'This noble truth of the origin of suffering should be given up.’

‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pahātabban’
If the noun above is similarly the nominative case, what is to be given up would be the neuter "noble truth"; as translated. Athough the "dukkha" is also neuter, I read, in general, the last member of the compound gets inflected according to its declension while the other members keep their stem form. Therefore, it appears the compound "dukkhasamudayaṃ" is masculine. If the noun to be given up was the masculine "origin" (samudayaṃ), it would be accusative case.

The next passage includes a Past Participle:
This noble truth of the origin of suffering has been given up.’

‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pahīnan’
Does "ariyasaccaṃ" remain nominative here? Or is it accusative because it has been already given up? Also, is this a 1st person statement because the Buddha appear to say that He had given up craving?

Thank you

Note:
This — for the spiritually ennobled ones, the pain-originating true reality — is to be abandoned,' Harvey

'This origin of suffering, as a noble truth, can be abandoned.' Ñanamoli

'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned' Thanissaro

'This Origin of Suffering as a noble truth should be eradicated' Piyadassi

This noble truth of the origin of suffering is to be abandoned. Bodhi

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Re: Garava Sutta - Pali translation assistance

Post by DooDoot » Thu May 10, 2018 10:54 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 1:36 pm
I think what you mean to ask is whether it’s a noun (‘respecter’) rather than an adjective (‘respecting’). In which case the answer is no, it’s an adjective. See definition (c) of ‘garu’ in the PED.

Sabbe saddhammagaruno
I never learned grammar in my life but I am watching a few videos now on cases. Returning to the above, "garu" is an adjective where as the verb would be "garukaroti". Therefore, it appears the noun the adjective "garu" relates to is not to "saddhamma" but to "all of the Buddhas". In summary, "saddhammagaruno" is an adjective that describes the Buddhas. Is that correct? Thanks
DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 6:36 am
remembering the Buddhas teaching.
saraṃ [present particle; verb; sarati] buddhāna sāsanan”ti.
OK. So I better learn these cases first in simple English. "Genitive" indicates "possession". Therefore, "Buddhana" above in genitive and is also plural. Therefore, the translation is more clearly "remembering the teaching of the Buddhas", i.e., as translated with apostrophe after the "s".
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 1:36 pm
And so attakāma is ‘one desirous of his own welfare’. The -ena ending makes it instrumental: ‘by one desirous of his own welfare [should the Saddhamma be revered]’. In practice, however, all translators have chosen to make into an active rather than a passive sentence in English: ‘One desirous of his own welfare should revere the Saddhamma.’
OK. I think I am getting there. "Attakāmena" is certainly instrument therefore might mean: "‘by one being desirous of his own welfare [should the Saddhamma be revered]’". "Attakāmena" is the instrument or vehicle by which the aspirant achieves their goal.
Dhammanando wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 1:36 pm
As for saddhammo, this is in the nominative case as the subject-patient of a passive sentence: saddhammo garukātabbo, “the Good Dhamma should be revered.” But as mentioned already, most translators have opted to translate it as the object of an active sentence.
Sure. I think I get this. The sentence is merely about the "Good Dhamma". The Good Dhamma is the subject.

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Re: Garava Sutta - Pali translation assistance

Post by Dhammanando » Fri May 11, 2018 12:21 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:22 am
‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ pahātabban’
This passage has generated a lot of discussion among scholars on account of its use of the accusative form dukkhasamudayaṃ (and later dukkhanirodhaṃ), when what the reader would expect to see are the masculine nominative forms dukkhasamudayo and dukkhanirodho.

In the first of the links below Bhikkhu Anālayo summarizes the various hypotheses that have been advanced to resolve the problem. The other files and links are to some of the works that he refers to.


Bhikkhu Anālayo, 2006. The Ekottarika-āgama Parallel to the Saccavibhaṅga-sutta and the Four (Noble) Truths”. Buddhist Studies Review, 23.2: 145–153.
Link

Peter Harvey, 2009. The Four Ariya-saccas as ‘True Realities for the Spiritually Ennobled’– the Painful, its Origin, its Cessation, and the Way Going to This – Rather than ‘Noble Truths’ Concerning These”. Buddhist Studies Review, 26.2:197–227.
Link

Rune Johansson, 1973. Pali Buddhist Texts Explained to the Beginner, 23-5.
Johansson.pdf
(337.02 KiB) Downloaded 12 times

Also of interest, though I can’t find an online copy:

K.R. Norman, 1984. “The Four Noble Truths: A Problem of Pāli Syntax”. In L.A. Hercus (ed.), Indological and Buddhist Studies, Volume in Honour of Professor J.W. de Jong on his 60th birthday, 377–391, Delhi: Sri Satguru.

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Re: Garava Sutta - Pali translation assistance

Post by Dhammanando » Fri May 11, 2018 12:24 pm

And for readers of German this is the 1940 article that first broached the problem:

Friedrich Weller. Über die Formel der vier edlen Wahrheiten. Orientalistische Literaturzeitung, 43.3/4: 73–79.
Weller.pdf
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