what-exactly-is-the-relationship-between-samatha-and-samadhi?

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frank k
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what-exactly-is-the-relationship-between-samatha-and-samadhi?

Post by frank k » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:48 pm

I don't see "samatha" in Dmytro's pali terms index.

I started a thread here, because pasting pali/english html works:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... urces/9046

more EBT references that can shed light on this would be appreciated (or even non EBT sources). replying either forum works, I'll check both.
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Re: what-exactly-is-the-relationship-between-samatha-and-samadhi?

Post by Dmytro » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:38 am

Hi Frank,

Samatha is more about the ability to settle down and steady the mind:
Tatra bhikkhave yvāyaṃ puggalo lābhī adhipaññādhammavipassanāya, na lābhī ajjhattaṃ cetosamathassa. Tena bhikkhave puggalena yvāyaṃ puggalo lābhī ajjhattaṃ cetosamathassa, so upasaṅkamitvā evamassa vacanīyo: "kathaṃ nu kho āvuso cittaṃ saṇṭhapetabbaṃ? Kathaṃ cittaṃ sannisādetabbaṃ? Kathaṃ cittaṃ ekodikattabbaṃ? Kathaṃ cittaṃ samādahātabbanti?. " Tassa so yathādiṭṭhaṃ yathāviditaṃ vyākaroti: "evaṃ kho āvuso cittaṃ saṇṭhapetabbaṃ, evaṃ cittaṃ sannisādetabbaṃ, evaṃ cittaṃ ekodikattabbaṃ, evaṃ cittaṃ samādahātabbanti. "

"As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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Re: what-exactly-is-the-relationship-between-samatha-and-samadhi?

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:53 am

The question appears quite open.

Linguistically, my impression has always been the two words do not share a common linguistic root.

In terms of practise, my impression is samatha, similarly to vipassana, is a fruit of samadhi development of the eightfold path.

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Re: what-exactly-is-the-relationship-between-samatha-and-samadhi?

Post by frank k » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:42 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:38 am
Hi Frank,

Samatha is more about the ability to settle down and steady the mind:
Thanks Dmytro, I broke the passage down into more detail here: (msg. 12)
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/wh ... es/9046/12
and here
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/an ... trans/9054


and identified these 2 words you're associating closely with samatha as saṇṭhapeti sannisādeti.

So out of curiosity, how do you translate these words:
samatha, saṇṭhapeti, sannisādeti, samadhi, passadhi

and what is the relationship you see between samatha and passadhi?
I translate passaddhi as "pacification". There may even be a common indo-euro root in there.

Different English translators often use the same bunch of words (serenity, tranquility, calming, stillness) synonymously, and it's really confusing.

Ajahn Brahm translating samadhi as "stillness" is the most confusing of all, and I think has no justification for most EBT contexts.
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Re: what-exactly-is-the-relationship-between-samatha-and-samadhi?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:20 am

frank k wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:42 pm
Ajahn Brahm translating samadhi as "stillness" is the most confusing of all, and I think has no justification for most EBT contexts.
I think "stillness" would be adequate for samatha, but I agree it doesn't encompass the meaning of samadhi. AN 4.94, Samadhi Sutta, refers to both samatha and vipassana. Though of course most suttas on samadhi refer to the jhanas.
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Re: what-exactly-is-the-relationship-between-samatha-and-samadhi?

Post by Dmytro » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:11 pm

To put it simply, samatha is rather an ability, while samadhi is rather a state.

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Re: what-exactly-is-the-relationship-between-samatha-and-samadhi?

Post by frank k » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:55 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:11 pm
To put it simply, samatha is rather an ability, while samadhi is rather a state.
That certainly fits some contexts very well. Does that extend to samatha in other contexts? for example, the famous nibbana pericope occurring many passsages, such as AN 9.36

Nirvana
‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ
This (is) peace, this (is) exquisite —
yadidaṃ
that is,
Sabba-saṅkhāra-samatho
All-fabrications-stilled.
Sabb—ūpadhi-paṭinissaggo
All-acquisitions-relinquished.
Taṇhāk-khayo
Craving-destroyed.
virāgo
dispassion.
nirodho
cessation.
nibbānan’
Nirvana.
ti.


bodhi has: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities,
thanissaro: ‘This is peace, this is exquisite—the resolution of all fabrications;
sujato: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities,
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Re: what-exactly-is-the-relationship-between-samatha-and-samadhi?

Post by Dmytro » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:32 am

frank k wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:55 pm
That certainly fits some contexts very well. Does that extend to samatha in other contexts?
Thank you, evidently, does not.

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