pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

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justindesilva
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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:31 am

I am dead against kiling mice from any means as it leads against the 1st precept. But I have found because of this nature of mine the others at my home are suffering from various atrocities of mice. The only method of catching them was getting them trapped in a cage and delivering them far & out. Though there is rat poison I cannot just take up my mind. What is the advise.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:18 pm

Lal wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:37 am
Rightviewftw said: “can you tell more about how you arrive at this and why you think that other translators supposely miss this? Also what is the difference between arati and virati in that progression?”

These conclusions are arrived after many years of studying Dhamma. I do not remember each single sutta where I find these explanations. Of course many came from Waharaka Thero’s desanas and he did not (and could not for practical reasons) give reference for each “fact item”. But these days, I do try to keep records of suttas whenever possible.

Furthermore, many of these things can be figured out by each person. I do not mean figuring out the meanings of Pali words. I mean what is implied by these key words, when the meanings of those words are pointed out. But of course, that does not work if the meanings provided are not correct. Then the question arises as to how figures out whose translations are correct. The only way to determine that (as I see it), is to see whether that translator’s work is inter-consistent, i.e., those translations can provide consistent interpretations for ANY sutta in the Tipitaka.

Let me give an example: One of the best Pali-English dictionaries that I have seen is “https://www.budsas.org/ebud/dict-pe/dictpe-01-a.htm”.
- However, even in that dictionary, the meaning of all four words arati, vrati, pativirati, and veramani are listed as “abstinence”. So, in analyzing several suttas, one may draw wrong conclusions from some of those suttas, because that translation is correct only for the Pali word “veramani”. Abstinence is a very strong word: It means one will absolutely not do something. But pativirati is a more “mild” word; it means one really does not like to do it, but some extreme conditions may force one to it.

For example, a Sotapanna would not take a life with even a trace of liking. But there were many who had attained the Sotapanna stage during the time of the Buddha, and many of them were “householders”. They were married, had children, and had to take care of their families. So, we can clearly see that they were likely to had been engaged in some activities that clearly led to killing of animals. Just to take a simple example, suppose a child is playing in a playground stepped into a nest of ants. The ants start going up child’s legs. The child would be terrified and start screaming. If the father was a Sotapanna, he would of course wipe those ants off the legs of the child killing many of those ants. He would do that not with any liking, but he just HAD TO do it.

So, one would learn about these “subtleties” as one learns Dhamma. In my opinion, it is not that productive to spend time on English translations of deep suttas for two reasons:
- First is that basic foundation is necessary, like the five precepts (see, for example, "https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... t-by-them/") and dasa akusala, and the basic idea of paticca samuppada (which I have recently discussed in brief at the forum "viewtopic.php?f=46&p=479526#p479526".
- Second is that most English translations of key Pali words like anicca and anatta are not correct. Again, I have pointed this out in the above mentioned forum several months ago. I know that many of you do not agree. Only thing I can do is to answer any reasonable questions on what I have written; but one must quote what I stated and explain why that is not correct.

I would urge anyone interested to think about this general outline. We can discuss your original question on "pativirati" in more detail if needed.
Very interesting stuff, thank you.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Lal
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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Lal » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:26 pm

@justindesilva:
Problems with rats/mice is no different from getting sick, injured, and many such troubling incidents. They are all part of suffering in this world that arise due to kamma vipaka. But when we do more dasa akusala to solve those problems, that inevitably leads to more vipaka in the future.
It is always good to start by looking at the “root cause” of problems in general. Instead of dealing with each issue as they come up, we need to have a good understanding of why we all face situations like this.

1. Nothing happens without one or more causes. On the other hand, even if CAUSES are there, for something to happen, suitable CONDITIONS must be there too. This is a key principle in Buddha Dhamma; see, “https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... en-causes/”. By the way, this is also called Paticca Samuppada (Dependent Origination).

2. All life experiences we go through can be traced back to our MINDS: What we think, speak, and do, will have consequences. This is why “sankhara” come at the beginning of a paticca samuppada cycle (however, it is really abhisankhara that have significant kamma vipaka). This is another key point most people do not understand.

3. When something happens to us (injury, major sickness, etc), we tend to think it is just “bad luck”. That is wrong. “We reap what we sow”. We can see this clearly when we look at wider world. Think about a deer being eaten alive by a tiger. It is not like tiger kills the deer and eats it; it is really eaten alive. Imagine the pain suffered by the deer. All these are due to kamma vipaka. But it is important to realize that kamma vipaka are NOT deterministic; see, “https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... -by-kamma/“.
Kamma vipaka are not deterministic because they can be avoided by understanding the importance of the CONDITIONS. We can do that as humans. But animals cannot, because they cannot understand Paticca Samuppada.

4. Furthermore, we can go one more step and make existing kamma beeja (which are responsible for bringing kamma vipaka) effectively “duds”; see: “https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... mmakkhaya/“.

5. What happens in general is that when we suffer due to a bad kamma vipaka, we tend to respond in ways where we do more bad kamma and accumulate more kamma beeja, which can bring more vipaka, and so on.
– The Buddha said this is why our samsaric journey never ends: “kamma vipaka vaddanti, vipako kamma sambhavo; tasma punabbhavo hoti, evam loko pavattati” (Translated: "past kamma bring kamma vipaka, in order to deal with those vipaka we make new kamma; this is the cause of rebirth and thus the continuation of this world (for a given living being)").
-If we need to break this cycle, we need to understand how to make existing kamma beeja “effectively duds”: That is the key to end of ALL future suffering or Nibbana. This is why the post in #4 above is very important.

6. However, well before we work towards ending samsaric suffering, we need to figure out how to deal with “short term suffering”, like the one Justin described. We need to have a ‘peace of mind” and also the right mindset to grasp deeper Dhamma concepts like Paticca Samuppada and Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta).
- Here we need to do two things: Make conditions for “good kamma beeja” to bring good kamma vipaka and also avoid conditions for “bad kamma beeja” to bring bad vipaka. I suggest reading the posts in #1 and #3 above, and in “https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... na-dhamma/”.
- I must say that some of these posts are a bit advanced.

So, I hope everyone understands the “big picture” (and the root causes of dasa akusala) that I tried to lay out. It is impossible to solve individual problems like the mice/rat issue on a permanent basis until the root causes are tackled. When one truly follows Buddha’s Noble Path, all these minor problems gradually fade away. But it takes some time to see the results.
-The closest analogy I can give is the following: Suppose one is getting chronic headaches due to an underlying major problem like a cancer. One can get temporary relief for headaches by taking a pill. But until one tackles the underlying cause of cancer, those headaches will keep coming back. And it takes time to remove the root causes for cancer, which involves a well-executed treatment procedure.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:33 pm

Lal wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:26 pm
Problems with rats/mice is no different from getting sick, injured, and many such troubling incidents. They are all part of suffering in this world that arise due to kamma vipaka.
AN 6.63 appears to define kamma as intention and, thus, I doubt people or mice generate the intention to get sick. The 1st Noble Truth appears to summarise all dukkha as upaadna. Also, SN 22.1 may be helpful.
saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:42 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:41 am
Lal wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:37 am
For example, a Sotapanna would not take a life with even a trace of liking. But there were many who had attained the Sotapanna stage during the time of the Buddha, and many of them were “householders”. They were married, had children, and had to take care of their families. So, we can clearly see that they were likely to had been engaged in some activities that clearly led to killing of animals. Just to take a simple example, suppose a child is playing in a playground stepped into a nest of ants. The ants start going up child’s legs. The child would be terrified and start screaming. If the father was a Sotapanna, he would of course wipe those ants off the legs of the child killing many of those ants. He would do that not with any liking, but he just HAD TO do it.
I think the father has liking for the child.
I requested an answer from this post because Lal brings in an analogy of a father and the son in confrontation with ants and writes that the father kills the ants not with a liking. But he writes to my question , that the problem of mice is a question of karma. With little kids around and my dependants the question of mice who urinates and lays its faecus in the kitchen running here and there
at nights is a hygenic problem. A lawyer friend of mine who successfully eradicated them sinned once and he does not have to sin again , as he says. But if one in my house gets sick because of rats in my house then also another problem is created. I have not yet decided on a last means of eradicating. But if my intention of eradicating them is for the safety of others then how does kamma play on it.
As according to Lal getting creatures out because of liking to children by s father, then the same theory should apply to every one under similar circumstances.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Lal » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:09 pm

justindesilva said: "As according to Lal getting creatures out because of liking to children by s father, then the same theory should apply to every one under similar circumstances."

That is a reasonable conclusion. But each person needs to decide how to handle each personal situation, because only that person knows all the details of that situation.

In general, it is impossible to live in this world without harming other lifeforms. We just need to decide on how to handle things in order to “minimize the overall damage”. Let me give an example form the Tipitaka. I don’t remember the name of the sutta, but the account is as follows:

Once our Gotama Buddha, when he was a Bodhisattva, was a captain of a ship. While in the middle of the ocean, one crew member persuaded half of the crew to kill the captain and his half of the crew and to take over the ship. The Bodhisattva came to know about the plot. He thought through the consequences and killed the rebel leader. The rebellion stopped and the journey was completed without anymore incidents. If he had not done that many more lives would have been lost. Of course, the Bodhisattva accrued a strong bad kamma vipaka for the killing. But the alternative could have been for many more people to lose their lives.

Another important factor here is that a human life and human welfare is much “weighty” than animal lives. For example, it does make sense to kill a dog that is about to attack and kill a human child. One would accrue bad kamma vipaka for the killing of the dog, but would also accrue good kamma vipaka for saving the child’s life and the latter definitely has a “much higher weight”. The life of a human is worth much more than that of an animal. For example, a dog can never attain a magga phala or even do any kusala kamma, while a human can.

Some of these are discussed in the post, “https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... nt-kammas/".

Then there is the other aspect, which I tried to highlight in the previous post. When one makes progress on the Path, number of such "troubling incidents" or will reduce with time. This has a deeper explanation in reducing conditions (samanantara) for bad kamma vipaka to take place. More details on that in the post, "https://puredhamma.net/paticca-samuppad ... a-paccaya/".

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Lal » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:03 pm

@rightviewftw:
The six things that a Sōtapanna will absolutely not do are listed in the "https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/mn115": 

Killing one's mother.
Killing one's father.
Killing an Arahant.
Injuring a Buddha.
Causing sangha bheda (spreading wrong Dhamma is included here).
Taking refuge in anyone other than a Buddha (i.e., believing in other ways of "salvation").

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:10 pm

Lal wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:03 pm
@rightviewftw:
The six things that a Sōtapanna will absolutely not do are listed in the "https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/mn115": 

Killing one's mother.
Killing one's father.
Killing an Arahant.
Injuring a Buddha.
Not sure why you keep posting this. 99% of puthujjana would never do the above. Why lower moral standards by inferring not doing the above is somehow exemplary? :shrug:
Lal wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:03 pm
Causing sangha bheda (spreading wrong Dhamma is included here).
Taking refuge in anyone other than a Buddha (i.e., believing in other ways of "salvation").
The above is probably why I don't take refuge in idiosycnatic interpretations of suttas, such as @ puredhamma.net.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:13 am

[quote=DooDoot post
@rightviewftw:

[/quote]
Not sure why you keep posting this. 99% of puthujjana would never do the above. Why lower moral standards by inferring not doing the above is somehow exemplary? :shrug:
Lal wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:03 pm
Causing sangha bheda (spreading wrong Dhamma is included here).
Taking refuge in anyone other than a Buddha (i.e., believing in other ways of "salvation").
The above is probably why I don't take refuge in idiosycnatic interpretations of suttas, such as @ puredhamma.net.
[/quote]

I here strongly agree with Doodoot , in reference with explaining with interpretation of word ' Anitya' . According to pure damma and certain other intellectual monks the term anitya has to be replaced with ' anicca'.
Yet in dammacakkapavattana sutta the term anitya means nothing else but momentary change. Trying to change this meaning of anitya for something else is slandering of buddas word. Anicca of course has an important meaning in explaining vedana but should not replace anitya from its proper place.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Lal » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:16 am

@justindesilva
You said: "Yet in dammacakkapavattana sutta the term anitya means nothing else but momentary change."

Can you provide the Pali verse from the sutta and explain where it says anitya means momentary change? This is a critical point.

"Anitya" is not a Pali word, it is a Sanskrit word. Anitya in Sanskrit does mean "impermanence", but the Pali word for impermanence is "adduwan".

The same mistake is made for taking the Pali word "anatta" to be the same as the Sanskrit word "anathma". Again, "anathma" does mean "no-self" but "anatta" means without "atta" or "no essence" or "futile".

By the way, there is no mention about "momentary change" in the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta either.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by justindesilva » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:26 pm

Lal wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:16 am
@justindesilva
You said: "Yet in dammacakkapavattana sutta the term anitya means nothing else but momentary change."

Can you provide the Pali verse from the sutta and explain where it says anitya means momentary change? This is a critical point.

"Anitya" is not a Pali word, it is a Sanskrit word. Anitya in Sanskrit does mean "impermanence", but the Pali word for impermanence is "adduwan".

The same mistake is made for taking the Pali word "anatta" to be the same as the Sanskrit word "anathma". Again, "anathma" does mean "no-self" but "anatta" means without "atta" or "no essence" or "futile".

By the way, there is no mention about "momentary change" in the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta either.
But though it is mentioned there or not we experience momentary change as observed from astronomy etc. We as physical beings keep on changing from moment physically and mentally , owing to the rotation of earth and all electrons and atoms , which makes us age and die. Please show me where it is indicated in sutta by lord budda. This is for me to learn more than an argument.
Further which sutta indicates the physico chemical changes ( other than DO) of beings is a question if anitya is not the proper word.
I rely more on observation of phenomena and changes rather than interplay of meanings of dead languages.
This does not mean to say that I do not reverently follow DO, aryashtanga marga, Dana, Sila, bhavana.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Lal » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:15 pm

@justindesilva
You may be referring to the statement that we hear often: “Anything in this world lasts only a brief moment. Any object is formed and destroyed within a short time of the order of a thought moment. Then it is re-formed and the process continues ceaselessly. What you see now is not the same thing that was there a thought moment before”.
- This “creation/destruction” process that is supposed to happen in 17 thought-moments is tied to the concept of “impermanence” mentioned above.

There is a HUGE difference between the following two phenomena:

1.A rupa that we see with our eyes (people, animals, trees, mountains, etc) are sankata. Any given sankata arises, lives for a certain time, and is destroyed; that lifetime will vary widely: A fly may live for a few days, a human about 100 years, a building may last hundreds of years, the Earth will last about 4-5 billion more years, etc.

2. A hadaya rupa is generated in the hadaya vatthu by a sense event through one of the five physical senses. The lifetime of a hadaya rupa is basically the time taken to experience that external sense event, i.e., 17 thought moments (during which an impression of the external rupa is made in the mind by a citta vithi). This takes an extremely short time, less than a billionth of a second.

So, the misconception that people have is that each sankata is annihilated COMPLETELY and is re-created within 17 thought-moments. That is an unbelievably stupid statement. Only a hadaya rupa is destroyed in 17 thought-moments.

For example, is one’s physical body is destroyed within 17 thought-moments and re-created? Is our Earth destroyed in 17 thought-moments and re-created? Does that even make sense?

Just because such statements are repeated and written down in books does not mean that they are correct. The Buddha advised us to think rationally and decide for ourselves.

This is discussed in detail in the post: “https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/gandh ... t-moments/".

I would be happy to discuss further if you or anyone else has questions on what I have written.

Furthermore, it is true that any sankata is impermanent (anitya). But anicca means MUCH MORE than impermanence, even though it includes impermanence; see, "https://puredhamma.net/key-hidden-dhamm ... -anatta-2/".

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Dmytro » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:37 am

Hi Justin,
justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:31 am
I am dead against kiling mice from any means as it leads against the 1st precept. But I have found because of this nature of mine the others at my home are suffering from various atrocities of mice. The only method of catching them was getting them trapped in a cage and delivering them far & out. Though there is rat poison I cannot just take up my mind. What is the advise.
you may find useful the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=28795

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by justindesilva » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:29 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:37 am
Hi Justin,
justindesilva wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:31 am
I am dead against kiling mice from any means as it leads against the 1st precept. But I have found because of this nature of mine the others at my home are suffering from various atrocities of mice. The only method of catching them was getting them trapped in a cage and delivering them far & out. Though there is rat poison I cannot just take up my mind. What is the advise.
you may find useful the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=28795
Hi Dmytro
Just went through the posts. Cats ? Is another problem.
Yet I will try camphor .
Thanks for your concern.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Lal » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:35 pm

justindesilva had asked about the Dhamma­cakkap­pa­vat­ta­na Sutta: "https://legacy.suttacentral.net/pi/sn56.11". Since this is really the key issue, I thought about providing an analysis on the relevant verse, for the cause of arising of suffering in this world. It is expressed in the following verse:

"Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ—jātipi dukkhā, jarāpi dukkhā, byādhipi dukkho, maraṇampi dukkhaṃ, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ—saṃkhittena pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā dukkhā. Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, duk­kha­sa­muda­yaṃ ariyasaccaṃ".

Translated (not word-by-word, but to provide the meaning): "“This, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union (sampayogo) with what is what one does not like (appiyehi) is suffering; separation (vippayogo) from what one likes (piyehi) is suffering; not to get what one likes ( yam pi iccham) is suffering; in brief, craving for the five aggregates (pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā) is suffering.

So, this does not say anything about impermanence. The suffering arises when one does things based on the cravings (tanha based on icca)for worldly things.

The general statement about how one gets to suffering is: "yampicchaṃ na labhati tampi dukkhaṃ". One gets distraught when one does not get one likes. One may do dasa akusala to get what one likes, and that gets one into even deeper trouble because that brings bad kamma vipaka.

But the key point is that any material thing in this world cannot be maintained to one's satisfaction IN THE LONG RUN. That is because all sankata (living beings, plants, houses, star systems like our Solar system, anything in the universe) are not only destroyed (impermanent), but ALSO are subject to the viparinama nature (subjected to UNEXPECTED change DURING its existence).

This is the key characteristic of Nature expressed by anicca, which comes from "na + icca", or NOT possible to maintain in the way one's desires. To emphasize the anicca nature, sometimes it is written as "aniccha". In Sinhala අනිච්ච to අනිච්ජ.

The whole world is included in the pancakkhandha. But each person craves or desires (also called tanha) for only a fraction of things in this world and that is pañcu­pādā­nak­khan­dhā.

So, there is NOTHING said about impermanence or momentary destruction of a sankata. In a previous post above, I have explained that the only thing that is destroyed in 17 thought moments is a citta or more precisely a citta vithi (loosely translated as a thought). A sankata like a human body will last about 100 years, a house may last several hundreds of years, and our Solar system will last billions of years.

By the way, the way to stop suffering is in the following verses: by seeing (not with eyes, but with wisdom or panna) this true nature and thereby getting rid of tanha or cravings: "yo tassāyeva taṇhāya asesa­virāga­nirodho.."

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