Page 1 of 2

devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:03 am
by echalon
I have a question regarding use of half-forms and ligatures in devanagari when writing Pali. Looking at Tipitaka.org's devanagari version, e.g. http://www.tipitaka.org/deva/cscd/vin01m.mul0.xml, I notice that for a number of consonant clusters (but not all) the text includes zero-width joiners (U+200D) in order to show the consonant clusters with half-forms instead of full ligatures. For example, "verañjakaṇḍaṃ" is written as वेरञ्‍जकण्डं instead of वेरञ्जकण्डं. The addition of the zero-width joiner (U+200D) causes the ञ to be shown as a half-form ञ्‍ instead of a full ligature with , i.e. ञ्ज. The same is true for ल्‍ल instead of ल्ल and न्‍न instead of न्न. At the same time, some clusters are written with full ligatures, e.g. त्त and ब्र, which at least with the font I have (Sanskrit 2003) render differently than they would with a zero-width joiner (i.e. त्‍त and ब्‍र). Could anyone tell me, in whatever Pali materials printed in Devanagari you have, which consonant clusters use full ligatures and which use half-forms? Is it the same pattern as Tipitaka.org? Is this kind of thing simply up to the publisher, or is there some kind of convention for Pali writing in Devanagari for which clusters use full ligatures? Thanks for your help!

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:16 am
by tiltbillings
Ven Dhammanando and Ven Paññāsikhara and Kåre may be the ones that could help you with this.

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:38 am
by Paññāsikhara
tiltbillings wrote:Ven Dhammanando and Ven Paññāsikhara and Kåre may be the ones that could help you with this.
Not me, sorry! Though I understand the situation and question, I really don't have enough experience with Devanagari for Pali to add much of any use.

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:59 am
by Kare
echalon wrote:I have a question regarding use of half-forms and ligatures in devanagari when writing Pali. Looking at Tipitaka.org's devanagari version, e.g. http://www.tipitaka.org/deva/cscd/vin01m.mul0.xml, I notice that for a number of consonant clusters (but not all) the text includes zero-width joiners (U+200D) in order to show the consonant clusters with half-forms instead of full ligatures. For example, "verañjakaṇḍaṃ" is written as वेरञ्‍जकण्डं instead of वेरञ्जकण्डं. The addition of the zero-width joiner (U+200D) causes the ञ to be shown as a half-form ञ्‍ instead of a full ligature with , i.e. ञ्ज. The same is true for ल्‍ल instead of ल्ल and न्‍न instead of न्न. At the same time, some clusters are written with full ligatures, e.g. त्त and ब्र, which at least with the font I have (Sanskrit 2003) render differently than they would with a zero-width joiner (i.e. त्‍त and ब्‍र). Could anyone tell me, in whatever Pali materials printed in Devanagari you have, which consonant clusters use full ligatures and which use half-forms? Is it the same pattern as Tipitaka.org? Is this kind of thing simply up to the publisher, or is there some kind of convention for Pali writing in Devanagari for which clusters use full ligatures? Thanks for your help!
I'm sorry, but I do not quite understand the question. In most above cases, where you ask about "x instead of x" the two are non-distinguishable on my screen. I only see a difference in your last example. I do not have much printed matter in Pali-Devanagari, but at least in "Bauddhagamarthasamgraha", a good anthology of passages from Buddhist canonical texts in Sanskrit and Pali, printed in Devanagari, I find that clusters are written with full ligatures, e.g. त्त and ब्र, and not like this: त्‍त and ब्‍र.

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:09 pm
by echalon
Kare wrote: I'm sorry, but I do not quite understand the question. In most above cases, where you ask about "x instead of x" the two are non-distinguishable on my screen. I only see a difference in your last example. I do not have much printed matter in Pali-Devanagari, but at least in "Bauddhagamarthasamgraha", a good anthology of passages from Buddhist canonical texts in Sanskrit and Pali, printed in Devanagari, I find that clusters are written with full ligatures, e.g. त्त and ब्र, and not like this: त्‍त and ब्‍र.
If you can't see any difference between the example pairs, you need a font which supports more ligatures. You can try Chandas from http://www.sanskritweb.net/cakram/, which claims to have "the largest ligature set", and certainly has a great many. I would very much appreciate it if you could try out this font and then tell me what kind of ligatures you find in your Bauddhagamarthasamgraha.

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:13 pm
by DNS
:hello:

Hi echalon,

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel!

I don't know Devangari, but may want to learn it one day. I'm in the slow process of learning Pali now, but using Roman script.

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:17 pm
by Kare
echalon wrote:
Kare wrote: I'm sorry, but I do not quite understand the question. In most above cases, where you ask about "x instead of x" the two are non-distinguishable on my screen. I only see a difference in your last example. I do not have much printed matter in Pali-Devanagari, but at least in "Bauddhagamarthasamgraha", a good anthology of passages from Buddhist canonical texts in Sanskrit and Pali, printed in Devanagari, I find that clusters are written with full ligatures, e.g. त्त and ब्र, and not like this: त्‍त and ब्‍र.
If you can't see any difference between the example pairs, you need a font which supports more ligatures. You can try Chandas from http://www.sanskritweb.net/cakram/, which claims to have "the largest ligature set", and certainly has a great many. I would very much appreciate it if you could try out this font and then tell me what kind of ligatures you find in your Bauddhagamarthasamgraha.
I'll try that. But I see on that site that there are two different styles - northern and southern. Which one are you using?

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:33 pm
by echalon
Kare wrote:I'll try that. But I see on that site that there are two different styles - northern and southern. Which one are you using?
I'm using Chandas, the southern style. I'm not sure which one is more common, so I suppose just compare the two images (they are the same text in the two styles) and choose the one you are more used to. In any case, it shouldn't change the examples significantly.

On a side note, what style does that devanagari text of yours use? Appparently you can look at अ, ण, and झ to distinguish the two styles.

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:43 pm
by Kare
echalon wrote:
Kare wrote:I'll try that. But I see on that site that there are two different styles - northern and southern. Which one are you using?
I'm using Chandas, the southern style. I'm not sure which one is more common, so I suppose just compare the two images (they are the same text in the two styles) and choose the one you are more used to. In any case, it shouldn't change the examples significantly.

On a side note, what style does that devanagari text of yours use? Appparently you can look at अ, ण, and झ to distinguish the two styles.
Yes, I see that the book I mentioned, and also some other Devanagari Pali books in my bookshelf, is printed in the southern style. I'll be back later after downloading and installing the font.

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:56 pm
by Kare
OK, the font is installed. But I see no difference in your first posting ... sorry.

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:28 pm
by seanpdx
echalon wrote:I have a question regarding use of half-forms and ligatures in devanagari when writing Pali. Looking at Tipitaka.org's devanagari version, e.g. http://www.tipitaka.org/deva/cscd/vin01m.mul0.xml, I notice that for a number of consonant clusters (but not all) the text includes zero-width joiners (U+200D) in order to show the consonant clusters with half-forms instead of full ligatures. For example, "verañjakaṇḍaṃ" is written as वेरञ्‍जकण्डं instead of वेरञ्जकण्डं. The addition of the zero-width joiner (U+200D) causes the ञ to be shown as a half-form ञ्‍ instead of a full ligature with , i.e. ञ्ज. The same is true for ल्‍ल instead of ल्ल and न्‍न instead of न्न. At the same time, some clusters are written with full ligatures, e.g. त्त and ब्र, which at least with the font I have (Sanskrit 2003) render differently than they would with a zero-width joiner (i.e. त्‍त and ब्‍र). Could anyone tell me, in whatever Pali materials printed in Devanagari you have, which consonant clusters use full ligatures and which use half-forms? Is it the same pattern as Tipitaka.org? Is this kind of thing simply up to the publisher, or is there some kind of convention for Pali writing in Devanagari for which clusters use full ligatures? Thanks for your help!
Ok, so... there are a couple issues here. First, when speaking of fonts, using half-ligatures is just plain easier for the person/people creating the font. And, for some things, it's much easier to use half-ligatures when, e.g., something could be transliterated into multiple scripts.

That said, full ligatures (where a full ligature exists that differs from a half ligature) seem to be the rule in most cases. If you haven't, read the itranslator manual: http://www.sanskritweb.net/itrans/itmanual2003.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It lists all the full and half-ligatures, and has an appendix with ligature attestations for hindi.

Of course, if we're talking about writing pali in devanagari, what could be construed as "most accurate" could vary. There are no historically attested pali/devanagari ligatures, since pali wasn't written in devanagari. One could use sinhalese or burmese, but I don't know how well the scripts relate to devanagari in terms of conjuncts/ligatures.

When I write devanagari, I use the ligature attestations in the itrans manual. At least then I know that I'm not making up some random character in order to write a conjunct. ;)

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:31 pm
by echalon
Kare wrote:OK, the font is installed. But I see no difference in your first posting ... sorry.
What browser are you using, on what platform? If you are using Windows XP or earlier you may need to enable complex text support. You can find instructions at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Multi ... rt_(Indic).

In the meantime, I've attached a PDF version of my post which you should be able to view just fine.
posting.pdf
The original post in PDF format with proper rendering.
(15.79 KiB) Downloaded 105 times

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:39 pm
by seanpdx
echalon wrote:
Kare wrote:I'll try that. But I see on that site that there are two different styles - northern and southern. Which one are you using?
I'm using Chandas, the southern style. I'm not sure which one is more common, so I suppose just compare the two images (they are the same text in the two styles) and choose the one you are more used to. In any case, it shouldn't change the examples significantly.

On a side note, what style does that devanagari text of yours use? Appparently you can look at अ, ण, and झ to distinguish the two styles.
Southern style is much more common. I occasionally see things written in the northern style script, but not often.

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:46 pm
by echalon
seanpdx wrote:Of course, if we're talking about writing pali in devanagari, what could be construed as "most accurate" could vary. There are no historically attested pali/devanagari ligatures, since pali wasn't written in devanagari. One could use sinhalese or burmese, but I don't know how well the scripts relate to devanagari in terms of conjuncts/ligatures.
Yes, of course the idea of accuracy or authenticity is not applicable at all. I would just like to know what conventions are for academia, so I can decide what ligatures I need to learn to write!
seanpdx wrote:When I write devanagari, I use the ligature attestations in the itrans manual. At least then I know that I'm not making up some random character in order to write a conjunct. ;)
Do you mean you use the ligatures attested in hindi? Or all the ligatures they list for Sanskrit, Pali, Hindi, and Marathi?

Re: devanagari ligatures and half-forms when writing pali

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:56 pm
by seanpdx
echalon wrote:
seanpdx wrote:Of course, if we're talking about writing pali in devanagari, what could be construed as "most accurate" could vary. There are no historically attested pali/devanagari ligatures, since pali wasn't written in devanagari. One could use sinhalese or burmese, but I don't know how well the scripts relate to devanagari in terms of conjuncts/ligatures.
Yes, of course the idea of accuracy or authenticity is not applicable at all. I would just like to know what conventions are for academia, so I can decide what ligatures I need to learn to write!
seanpdx wrote:When I write devanagari, I use the ligature attestations in the itrans manual. At least then I know that I'm not making up some random character in order to write a conjunct. ;)
Do you mean you use the ligatures attested in hindi? Or all the ligatures they list for Sanskrit?
I use the attested sanskrit ligatures, with the addition of the pali-only ligatures.