The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Post Reply
theY
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by theY » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm

Tipitaka translation version and reading study system are the main cause of your question. You can't see the answer by yourself because you never recite and memorize suttanta-pāli like the ancient buddhist people did, such as commentary teachers did.



Cause-saṅkhāra and effect-saṅkhāra



There are 2 main type of saṅkhāra words are using in tipitaka: cause-saṅkhāra, that cause effect-saṅkhāra arising, and effect-saṅkhāra, that depending on cause-saṅkhāra to arise.



Cause-saṅkhāra example from S.N. Nidānavagga Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅga sutta:


Saṅkhārā paccayā viññāṇaṃ.



Direct translation: Fabrications cause mind.



Alternative translation: Fabrications fabricate mind.


You can see above saṅkhārā is in the cause position of sentence.



Effect-saṅkhāra example from D.N. mahāparinibbānasutta:


handadāni bhikkhave āmantayāmi vo vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādetha.



Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things[saṅkhārā] are subject to cease. Strive with earnestness.


You can see above saṅkhārā is in the effect position of sentence because
buddha taught in S.N. Nidānavagga Paccayasutta:


viññāṇaṃ bhikkhave aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā. ime vuccanti bhikkhave paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.



saṅkhārā bhikkhave aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā. ime vuccanti bhikkhave paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.



avijjā bhikkhave aniccā saṅkhatā paṭiccasamuppannā khayadhammā vayadhammā virāgadhammā nirodhadhammā. ime vuccanti bhikkhave paṭiccasamuppannā dhammā.



Monks, mind are impermanent, produced by a combination of causes, arise on account of a cause, a wasting thing, a decreasing thing, a fading thing and a ceasing thing.



Monks, fabrications are impermanent, produced by a combination of causes, arise on account of a cause, a wasting thing, a decreasing thing, a fading thing and a ceasing thing.



Monks, ignorance is impermanent, produced by a combination of causes. Arise on account of a cause, a wasting thing, a decreasing thing, a fading thing and a ceasing thing. (Āsavā cause ignorance.)



Monks, this is called effects.


From above sutta, saṅkhatā (meaning: "effect is fabricated by causes") and vayadhammā is predicate of avijjā, saṅkhārā, and viññānaṃ. Because they are arisen by their causes. So the context of above sutta showing the condition of causes and effects to let the listener see avijjā, saṅkhārā, and viññānaṃ as effect-saṅkhāra like saṅkhārā word in mahāparinibbānasutta, above.



If you understand pāli's relation of saṅkhāra, like I have explained it above to you. You can see the role of karma. Also, you can notice the error of @Dhammadhatu's answer, too.



Role of karma



Role of karma already defined in pāli, S.N. Nidānavagga paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅgasutta, as cause-saṅkhāra:


Saṅkhārā paccayā viññāṇaṃ.



Direct translation: Fabrications cause mind.



Alternative translation: Fabrications fabricate mind.


You can search more more detail of karma's role by it's nature:


‘‘katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā – kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāroฯ ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārāฯ



"And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.


You can notice all above saṅkhāras' explanations are causes, paṭiccasamuppādā, of their effects, paṭiccasamuppannā, by bhūmijasutta in the same cannon, S.N. Nidānavagga. This sutta show that "kamma is intention, cetanā, and intention is saṅkhāra", so in many sutta taught about kāya-saṅkhāra (kāya-kamma, kāya-sañcetanā, kāya-ducarita, kāya-sucarita, puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra), vacī-saṅkhāra (vacī-kamma, vacī-sañcetanā, vacī-ducarita, vacī-sucarita, puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra), citta-saṅkhāra (mano-kamma, mano-sañcetanā, mano-ducarita, mano-sucarita, puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra, āneñjābhisaṅkhāra) by the same context as kamma [cause] of vipāka [resultants]. You can use my example pāli words ad search by yourself.



Also, according to that bhūmijasutta, viññāṇa, nama-rupa, saḷāyatana, phassa, and vedanā in the Dependent Origination, are vipāka of saṅkhāra, too. Because no one can say "while viññāṇa arising, there is no nama-rupa arising, no āyatana arising, no phassa arising, and no vedanā arising". So, in M.N. uparipaṇṇāsa, anupada sutta taught the simultaneous arising of them:


[155] Idha bhikkhave sārīputto vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ
paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati . ye ca paṭhame jhāne
dhammā vitakko ca vicāro ca pīti ca sukhañca cittekaggatā
ca phasso vedanā saññā cetanā viññāṇaṃ 1- chando adhimokkho
viriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro tyassa dhammā anupadavavatthitā
honti tyassa dhammā viditā uppajjanti viditā upaṭṭhahanti
viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti . so evaṃ pajānāti
Evaṃ kirame dhammā ahutvā sambhonti hutvā
pativentīti 1- . So tesu dhammesu anupāyo anapāyo
anissito appaṭibaddho vippamutto visaṃyutto vimariyādikatena
cetasā viharati . so atthi uttariṃ nissaraṇanti pajānāti
tabbahulīkārā atthi tvevassa hoti.



“Again, bhikkhus, Sāriputta, overcoming thoughts and thought processes, the mind internally appeased in one point, with joy and pleasāntness born of concentration abides in the second jhānaThese things of the second jhāna such as internal appeasement, joy, pleasantness, one pointedness of mind, contact, feelings, perceptions, intentions, interest, resolution, effort, mindfulness, equanimity and attention, follow one after the other, to him. They rise, persist and fade with his knowledge. He knows, these things come to be and cause feelings to rise. When these things follow one after the other, he abides with a mind that does not settle, is not bound, is released and unyokedand is unrestricted. knows there is an escape beyond this. With much practise they come to him.


This sutta taught about jhāna, and jhāna is puññābhisaṅkhāra and apuññābhiaṅkhāra in A.N. ekādasakanipāta, aṭṭhakanāgarasutta. So simultaneous arising in anupadasutta referring to cause-saṅkhāra. However, pāli-student should use simultaneous arising with effect of the cause-saṅkhāra in the Dependent Origination, too, because when someone birth they must have viññāṇa, nama-rupa, saḷāyatana, phassa, and vedanā. Except asaññasatta-brahmma, arūpa-brahmma, and saññāvedayittanirodhasamāpatti-person, no one live without them, right?



There is only dhammadhatu's user error, no pāli error



But saṅkhāra in M.N. 44 cūlavedallasutta, that @dhammadhatu make error answer in this question-topic is not cause-saṅkhāra, so the pāli-student can not compare saṅkhāra in M.N. 44 cūlavedallasutta with saṅkhāra in bhūmijasutta and paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅgasutta. So the fact is "it is only @dhammadhatu's error. It is not pāli's error".



Explanation of saṅkhāra in M.N. 44 cūlavedallasutta



M.N. 44 cūlavedallasutta taught about effect-saṅkhāra, because visākhā-upāsaka was anāgāmi-ariya, and dhammadinnā-therī was arahanta-ariya, and both ariya already ceased five kāmaguṇa attachment, so visākhā-upāsaka asked dhammadinnā-therī about jhāna which causes the cessation of five kāmaguṇa attachment. And jhāna causes the cessation of in-&-out breaths, directed thought & evaluation, and perceptions & feelings, too. Therefore dhammadinnā-therī answered:


Assāsapassāsā kho āvuso visākha kāyasaṅkhāro vitakkavicārā
vacīsaṅkhāro saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāroti.



"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."


Because 4th jhāna causes the cessation of in-&-out breaths, 2nd jhāna causes the cessation of directed thought & evaluation, and saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti causes the cessation of perceptions & feelings [saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti translation: "the achievement to cease the perceptions & feelings]. So in D.N. Dasuttarasutta, ten Ariyan methods of living, taught about bodily fabrications (kāya-saṅkhāra) are ceased by 4th jhāna. Also, bodily fabrications (kāya-saṅkhāra) use in ānāpanassati-jhāna method in mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta, too. Both sutta enough to show that bodily fabrications in M.N. 44 cūlavedallasutta referring to effect-saṅkhāra.



Then, you will not do an reader error like @dhammadhatu done:


AN 6.63 states: "kamma is intention". In the Dependent Origination, intention (cetana) is first mentioned at nama-rupa (4th condition).



It is one of the greatest errors & corruptions to regard "sankhara" (2nd condition) as "kamma" because sankhara (in SN 12.2) is defined (per MN 44) as the in & out breathing (kaya sankhara); initial & discursive thought (vaci sankhara); and perception & feeling (citta sankhara). Bhikkhu Thanissaro explains this very well in the meditative examples in his book The Shape of Suffering.



Suttas, such as SN 14.12, show clearly that intention & kamma do not occur at sankhara (2nd condition), where sankhara is distracting thoughts & perceptions produced by ignorance (where ignorance, the 1st condition, includes the sensuality element or asava), as follows


So, I often say "Tipitaka translation version and reading study system are the main cause of your question. You can't see the answer by yourself because you never recite and memorize suttanta like the ancient buddhist people did, such as commentary teachers did."
Last edited by theY on Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:13 pm

theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
There are 2 main type of saṅkhāra words are using in tipitaka: cause-saṅkhāra, that cause effect-saṅkhāra arising, and effect-saṅkhāra, that depending on cause-saṅkhāra to arise.
This sounds true :) , i.e., sankhara can be a cause & sankhara can be an effect. It sounds like you are a Thai student or disciple of the Thai scholar monk Ajahn Buddhadasa, who taught:
I would like to take this opportunity to discuss all the meanings of the term "sankhara." This is a very common and important word in the Pali scriptures, but many people have problems with it due to its different uses and meanings. Languages are like that, uncertain and seemingly unreliable. The single word "sankhara" can mean "conditioner," the cause that conditions; it can mean "condition," the result of the action of conditioning; and it can mean "'conditioning," the activity or process of conditioning. We use the same word for the subject of the conditioning, "the concocter," as well as the object, "the concoction." We even use it for the activity, "the concocting," itself. This may be a bit confusing for you, so please remember that "sankhara" has three meanings. The correct meaning depends on the context. This knowledge will be valuable in your further studies.
Is this a youthful picture of 'theY' with Ajahn Buddhadasa? :heart:

Image

:alien:
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
If you understand pāli's relation of saṅkhāra, like I have explained it above to you. You can see the role of karma.
This sounds untrue :?: because it appears sankhara does not necessarily always involve intention. Kamma is intention: Cetanāhaṃ, bhikkhave, kammaṃ vadāmi. Cetayitvā kammaṃ karoti—kāyena vācāya manasā. "Form" ("rupa") is a sankhara (conditioned thing) but it is not caused by kamma or intention according to SN 22.82:
Cattāro kho, bhikkhu, mahābhūtā hetu, cattāro mahābhūtā paccayo rūpak­khan­dhassa paññāpanāya.

The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate

https://suttacentral.net/th/sn22.82
:alien:
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
‘‘katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā – kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāroฯ ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārāฯ

And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.

You can notice all above saṅkhāras' explanations are causes
Yes, this sounds true :) . Sankhara here appear to be causes, as explained in MN 44:
In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, are bodily, these things are bound up with the body, therefore in-breathing and out-breathing is a causal bodily process.

Having thought and reflected beforehand, friend Visākha, he afterwards breaks forth with a word, therefore thinking and reflection causes speech.

Perception and feeling are mental factors, these things are bound up with the mind, therefore perception and feeling fabricates the mind (citta).

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn44
:candle:
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
This sutta show that "kamma is intention, cetanā, and intention is saṅkhāra"

so in many sutta taught about kāya-saṅkhāra (kāya-kamma, kāya-sañcetanā, kāya-ducarita, kāya-sucarita, puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra), vacī-saṅkhāra (vacī-kamma, vacī-sañcetanā, vacī-ducarita, vacī-sucarita, puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra), citta-saṅkhāra (mano-kamma, mano-sañcetanā, mano-ducarita, mano-sucarita, puññābhisaṅkhāra, apuññābhisaṅkhāra, āneñjābhisaṅkhāra) by the same context as kamma [cause] of vipāka [resultants]. You can use my example pāli words ad search by yourself.
No. This may not necessarily be true :?: . In SN 12.25, the terms 'kaya sankhara' & 'kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­hetu' appear to be used in two different context therefore do not appear to be synonymous. Please refer to SN 12.25.

:candle:
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
This sutta taught about jhāna, and jhāna is puññābhisaṅkhāra and apuññābhiaṅkhāra in A.N. ekādasakanipāta, aṭṭhakanāgarasutta. So simultaneous arising in anupadasutta referring to cause-saṅkhāra. However, pāli-student should use simultaneous arising with effect of the cause-saṅkhāra in the Dependent Origination, too, because when someone birth they must have viññāṇa, nama-rupa, saḷāyatana, phassa, and vedanā. Except asaññasatta-brahmma, arūpa-brahmma, and saññāvedayittanirodhasamāpatti-person, no one live without them, right?
In the Dependent Origination, birth is the effect & is not the cause of viññāṇa, nama-rupa, saḷāyatana, phassa. Also, in the Dependent Origination, according to SN 12.12, a "someone" does not cause "birth". SN 12.12 is here:
Who, O Lord, clings?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One, "I do not say that 'he clings.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who clings?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of clinging?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Craving is the condition of clinging; and clinging is the condition of the process of becoming.' Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
About Dependent Origination, the suttas say:
Do not say so, Ānanda! Do not say so, Ānanda! This dependent arising, Ānanda, is deep and it appears deep. Because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma, Ānanda, this generation has become like a tangled skein, like a knotted ball of thread, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not pass beyond saṃsāra with its plane of misery, unfortunate destinations, and lower realms.
:candle:
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
Because 4th jhāna causes the cessation of in-&-out breaths, 2nd jhāna causes the cessation of directed thought & evaluation, and saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti causes the cessation of perceptions & feelings [saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti translation: "the achievement to cease the perceptions & feelings]. So in D.N. Dasuttarasutta, ten Ariyan methods of living, taught about bodily fabrications (kāya-saṅkhāra) are ceased by 4th jhāna. Also, bodily fabrications (kāya-saṅkhāra) use in ānāpanassati-jhāna method in mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta, too. Both sutta enough to show that bodily fabrications in M.N. 44 cūlavedallasutta referring to effect-saṅkhāra.
This sounds true :) but when these jhanas are attained, it seems logical the sankharas in Dependent Origination are also calmed to achieve these jhanas. Please refer to SN 36.11, which explains the gradual calming of sankharas.
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
AN 6.63 states: "kamma is intention". In the Dependent Origination, intention (cetana) is first mentioned at nama-rupa (4th condition).
This sounds reasonable. :)
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
So, I often say "Tipitaka translation version and reading study system are the main cause of your question. You can't see the answer by yourself because you never recite and memorize suttanta like the ancient buddhist people did, such as commentary teachers did."
I never heard before that Buddhist meditation (vipassana) is reciting, like Brahmins reciting hymns of the Veda.

I hope my answers can help an improvement in your scholarship. Often, two many words shows a departure from the simplicity of the Buddha.

:anjali:

Saengnapha
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:59 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:13 pm
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
So, I often say "Tipitaka translation version and reading study system are the main cause of your question. You can't see the answer by yourself because you never recite and memorize suttanta like the ancient buddhist people did, such as commentary teachers did."
I never heard before that Buddhist meditation (vipassana) is reciting, like Brahmins reciting hymns of the Veda.

I hope my answers can help an improvement in your scholarship. Often, two many words shows a departure from the simplicity of the Buddha.

:anjali:
I wonder if theY understands that memorizing and chanting sutta is also conditioned and is part of the conditioned way we perceive everything? This seems to be no more than a preference for using a particular conditioned action over another conditioned action. It does not seem like any of this has anything to do with the unconditioned and is part of the 'struggle' to somehow purify oneself to be able to 'gain' something.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by DooDoot » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:16 am

theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
Role of karma

Role of karma already defined in pāli, S.N. Nidānavagga paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅgasutta, as cause-saṅkhāra:
Saṅkhārā paccayā viññāṇaṃ.

Direct translation: Fabrications cause mind.

Alternative translation: Fabrications fabricate mind.
You can search more more detail of karma's role by it's nature:

‘‘katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā – kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāroฯ ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārāฯ

"And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.
If fabrications cause mind, is fabrications not something mental? If fabrications cause mind, do these fabrications exist without mind? :shrug:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by DooDoot » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:22 am

theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
Role of karma

Role of karma already defined in pāli, S.N. Nidānavagga paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅgasutta, as cause-saṅkhāra:
Saṅkhārā paccayā viññāṇaṃ.

Direct translation: Fabrications cause mind.

Alternative translation: Fabrications fabricate mind.
You can search more more detail of karma's role by it's nature:

‘‘katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā – kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāroฯ ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārāฯ

"And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.
In MN 44, kāyasaṅkhāro is said to be breathing or wind element. In MN 44, vacīsaṅkhāro is said to be thinking.

But, if sankharo in Paticcasammupada is intention & kamma, as S.N. Nidānavagga believes, how did the wind element arise & the thinking (dreaming) arise in the following examples from the Vinaya, which were declared to not be intentional? If all nama (mind) & body (rupa) is caused by sankara (kamma), how can the following examples from Vinaya be declared to be not intentional? Please explain. :shrug:
At one time a monk had gone to spend the day in the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood near Vesālī. He opened the door and lay down, and he had an erection because of wind. Just then a number of women, bringing scents and garlands, came to the monastery to look at the monastic dwellings. Those women saw that monk and they sat down on his penis. Having taken their pleasure, they said, “What a bull of a man,” and they put up their scents and garlands and departed. The monks saw the moisture and informed the Master.

“Monks, an erection occurs for five reasons: because of sensual desire, because of excrement, because of urine, because of wind, because of being stung by caterpillars. It’s impossible that that monk had an erection because of sensual desire. That monk is a perfected one. There’s no offense for that monk. But, monks, you should close the door when you are in seclusion during the day.”

At one time a monk from Bharukaccha dreamed that he had sexual intercourse with his former wife. He thought he was no longer a monk and that he would have to disrobe. While on his way to Bharukaccha, he saw Venerable Upāli and informed him of what had happened. Venerable Upāli said, “There’s no offense since it was in a dream.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-pj1

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by DooDoot » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:32 am

theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
Role of karma

Role of karma already defined in pāli, S.N. Nidānavagga paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅgasutta, as cause-saṅkhāra:
Saṅkhārā paccayā viññāṇaṃ.

Direct translation: Fabrications cause mind.

Alternative translation: Fabrications fabricate mind.
You can search more more detail of karma's role by it's nature:

‘‘katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā – kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāroฯ ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārāฯ

"And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.
If fabrications (kamma) cause mind (vinnana) and vinnana causes nama-rupa, why does SN 22.82 say the four elements cause rupa? :shrug:
Cattāro kho, bhikkhu, mahābhūtā hetu, cattāro mahābhūtā paccayo rūpak­khan­dhassa paññāpanāya.

The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate

https://suttacentral.net/th/sn22.82
Cattāro ca mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṃ upādāyarūpaṃ. Idaṃ vuccati rūpaṃ

The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called rupa.

SN 12.2 https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.2

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:30 am

theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
Tipitaka translation version and reading study system are the main cause of your question.

If you understand pāli's relation of saṅkhāra,
I was browsing a book about Abidhamma yesterday, which said, in the context of dependent origination, the word 'saṅkhārā' is the suttas is plural (พหูพจน์) while the word 'saṅkhāra' in Abidhamma is singular (เอกพจน์). Abidhamma has the view that sankhara means meritorious, demeritorious & imperturbable formations and, since these are merely thought or volitional formations, only one (เอกพจน์) type of (either meritorious, demeritorious or imperturbable) formation can arise in one (เอกพจน์) moment. This supports the case that sankhara in the suttas, being plural (พหูพจน์), is not meritorious, demeritorious & imperturbable formations. But when sankhara (kaya, vaci & citta sankhara) are taken as defined in MN 44, all three (พหูพจน์) sankhara can arise together, in the same (เอกพจน์) moment. I think this shows how Sutta & Abidhamma are different.

theY
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by theY » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:37 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:30 am
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
Tipitaka translation version and reading study system are the main cause of your question.

If you understand pāli's relation of saṅkhāra,
I was browsing a book about Abidhamma yesterday, which said, in the context of dependent origination, the word 'saṅkhārā' is the suttas is plural (พหูพจน์) while the word 'saṅkhāra' in Abidhamma is singular (เอกพจน์). Abidhamma has the view that sankhara means meritorious, demeritorious & imperturbable formations and, since these are merely thought or volitional formations, only one (เอกพจน์) type of (either meritorious, demeritorious or imperturbable) formation can arise in one (เอกพจน์) moment. This supports the case that sankhara in the suttas, being plural (พหูพจน์), is not meritorious, demeritorious & imperturbable formations. But when sankhara (kaya, vaci & citta sankhara) are taken as defined in MN 44, all three (พหูพจน์) sankhara can arise together, in the same (เอกพจน์) moment. I think this shows how Sutta & Abidhamma are different.
Please give me the reference in pali.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:49 am

theY wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:37 am
Please give me the reference in pali.
I cannot give you a reference however I did read it here:


Guide Through the Abhidhamma Pitaka: A Synopsis of the Philosophical ... By Nyanatiloka Thera
In my personal opinion, this is possibly an example of one misinterpretation/misunderstanding leading to another misinterpretation/misunderstanding. It can be seen how Abidhamma might be two errors of divergence away from the Buddha. I think this shows it not necessary we all follow Abidhamma.

theY
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by theY » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:19 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:49 am
In my personal opinion, this is possibly an example of one misinterpretation/misunderstanding leading to another misinterpretation/misunderstanding. It can be seen how Abidhamma might be two errors of divergence away from the Buddha. I think this shows it not necessary we all follow Abidhamma.
See: There are both plural and singular sankhara in abhidhamm-pitaka
viewtopic.php?p=453794#p453794
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

User avatar
Dmytro
Posts: 1521
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Contact:

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by Dmytro » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:48 am

theY wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:37 am
Please give me the reference in pali.
It has been mentioned that in the commentary to the Abhidhamma Pitaka (Sammohavinodani), the principle of Dependent Origination is shown occurring entirely within the space of one mind moment.
http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/ph ... dent10.htm

In the beginning of Abhidhamma explanation of Conditioned Arising, Ven. Buddhaghosa highlights the difference from Suttanta explanation in the previous chapters:

Tatrāyaṃ nayo – avisesena tāva catūsupi etesu suttantabhājaniye viya saṅkhārāti avatvā saṅkhāroti vuttaṃ, taṃ kasmāti? Ekacittakkhaṇikattā. Tatra hi nānācittakkhaṇiko paccayākāro vibhatto. Idha ekacittakkhaṇiko āraddho. Ekacittakkhaṇe ca bahū cetanā na santīti saṅkhārāti avatvā saṅkhāroti vuttaṃ.

939. Herein, (1) this is the method. Firstly as regards these four in general, instead of saying "formations" [in the plural] as in the Suttanta Division, saṅkhāro ("a formation") is said [in the singular]. Why is that? Because it refers to single conscious moments. For there [in the Suttanta Division] the structure of conditions of a number of conscious moments is explained. Here that of a single conscious moment is undertaken. And since there is not a plurality of volitions in a single conscious moment, "formation" is said instead of saying "formations".

Paṭhamavāre panettha ekacittakkhaṇapariyāpannadhammasaṅgahaṇato sabbaṭṭhānasādhāraṇato ca rūpaṃ chaḍḍetvā ‘‘viññāṇapaccayā nāma’’ntveva vuttaṃ. Tañhi ekacittakkhaṇapariyāpannaṃ sabbaṭṭhānasādhāraṇañca, na katthaci viññāṇappavattiṭṭhāne na pavattati. Yasmā ca ekacittakkhaṇapariyāpanno ekovettha phasso, tasmā tassānurūpaṃ paccayabhūtaṃ āyatanaṃ gaṇhanto saḷāyatanaṭṭhāne ‘‘nāmapaccayā chaṭṭhāyatanan’ti ekaṃ manāyatanaṃyeva āha. Tañhi ekassa akusalaphassassa anurūpaṃ paccayabhūtaṃ.

940. But here in the first section viññāṇapaccayā nāmam ("with consciousness as condition, mentality") only is said, leaving out materiality, both owing to taking states comprised within a single conscious moment and on acount of what is common to all instances. For that [i.e. mentality] is comprised within a single conscious moment and is common to all instances. For in no instance does consciousness not occur in its allotted place. And because only a single kind of contact is comprised within a single conscious moment here, therefore, taking the appropriate sense base as its condition, it is said: "With mentality as condition, the sixth base", giving the mind base alone in the place of the sixfold base. For this is an appropriate condition for a single kind of unprofitable contact.

Kāmañcetaṃ saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇanti etthāpi vuttaṃ, hetuphalavisesadassanatthaṃ pana aṅgapuṇṇatthañca puna idha gahitaṃ. Tatra hi etassa visesena saṅkhāro hetu, avisesena nāmaṃ phalaṃ. Idha panassa avisesena nāmaṃ hetu, visesena phasso phalanti.

941. And admittedly the clause "with a formation as condition, consciousness" is also stated here; but for the purpose of showing the distinction between cause and fruit and for the purpose of completing the factors it is taken again here. For there a formation in particular is the cause of that, and mentality in general is the fruit. But here mentality in general is its cause, and contact in particular is the fruit.

Sokādayo pana yasmā sabbe ekacittakkhaṇe na sambhavanti, sabbasmiñca cittappavattiṭṭhāne ceva citte ca na pavattanti, tasmā na gahitā. Jātijarāmaraṇāni pana acittakkhaṇamattānipi samānāni cittakkhaṇe antogadhattā aṅgaparipūraṇatthaṃ gahitāni.

942. But because sorrow, etc. are not all produced in a single conscious moment, and do not occur in every instance where consciousness occurs or in every consciousness, therefore they are not included. But birth, ageing and death, although not measurable by conscious moments, are nevertheless included because they exist within the conscious moment, and also for the purpose of completing the factors.

Evaṃ tāvettha ‘yaṃ aññathā vuttaṃ. Yañca avuttaṃ’ taṃ veditabbaṃ.

943. This is how in the first place "what has been stated otherwise" and "what has not been stated" should be understood.

Yaṃ panettha ito paresu vāresu vuttaṃ, tassattho vuttanayeneva veditabbo. Yasmiṃ yasmiṃ pana vāre yo yo viseso āgato, taṃ taṃ tattha tattheva pakāsayissāma.

944. But as to this, the meaning of what is stated in the subsequent sections should be understood in the way aforesaid. Whatever has been handed down differently in the various sections we shall explain as and when we come to it.


Abhi-a Vibh, 6. Paṭiccasamuppādavibhaṅgo, 2. Abhidhammabhājanīyavaṇṇanā, 1. Paccayacatukkaṃ, para. 6

THE DISPELLER OF DELUSION, CHAPTER SIX, CLASSIFICATION OF THE STRUCTURE OF CONDITIONS,
B. Abhidhamma Division, (i) The Condition Tetrad

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:24 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:48 am
Herein, (1) this is the method. Firstly as regards these four in general, instead of saying "formations" [in the plural] as in the Suttanta Division, saṅkhāro ("a formation") is said [in the singular]. Why is that? Because it refers to single conscious moments. For there [in the Suttanta Division] the structure of conditions of a number of conscious moments is explained. Here that of a single conscious moment is undertaken. And since there is not a plurality of volitions in a single conscious moment, "formation" is said instead of saying "formations".
As I posted, somewhere, the above (logical) departure from sutta (due to possible institutionalized misinterpretation of SN 12.51) supports the view that the MN 44 definitions of kaya, vaci & citta sankhara naturally are the meaning of kaya, vaci & citta sankhara in Dependent Origination, which is the view suggested by Buddhadasa, Nanavira, Nayanananda & Thanissaro's Shape of Suffering.

In other words, when ignorance arises, it can cause all three sankharo to arise together in one mind-moment, namely, a distracting thought (vaci sankharo) with ignorant perceptions (citta sankharo) and disturbed breathing (kaya sankharo); as Thanissaro clearly describes below:
1) Ignorance: not seeing things in terms of the four noble truths of stress, its origination, its cessation, and the path to its cessation.

2) Fabrication: the process of intentionally shaping states of body and mind. These processes are of three sorts:
a) bodily fabrication: the in-and-out breath,
b) verbal fabrication: directed thought and evaluation, and
c) mental fabrication: feeling (feeling tones of pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain) and perception (the mental labels applied to the
objects of the senses for the purpose of memory and recognition).

4) Name-and-form: mental and physical phenomena. Mental phenomena include:
a) feeling,
b) perception,
c) intention,
d) contact, and
e) attention.

Physical phenomena include the four great elements—the properties constituting the kinetic sense of the body—and any physical phenomenon derived
from them:
f) earth (solidity),
g) water (liquidity),
h) wind (energy and motion), and
i) fire (warmth).

A. As you walk to the door of your parents’ house, thinking about the situation (2b—verbal fabrication), you pull up memories of things your uncle
has done in the past (2c—mental fabrication)
. This provokes anger, causing your breathing to become labored and tight (2a—bodily fabrication). This makes you uncomfortable (2c—mental fabrication), and you are aware of how uncomfortable you feel (3—consciousness). Hormones are released into your bloodstream (4 f through 4i—Form). Without being fully aware that you are making a choice, you choose (4c—intention) to focus (4e— attention) on the perception (4b) of how trapped you feel in this situation. Your consciousness of this idea (5 and 6—mental contact) feels oppressive (7—feeling). You want to find a way out (8—craving).

https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors ... fering.pdf
:candle:
Dmytro wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:48 am
But here in the first section viññāṇapaccayā nāmam ("with consciousness as condition, mentality") only is said, leaving out materiality, both owing to taking states comprised within a single conscious moment and on account of what is common to all instances. For that [i.e. mentality] is comprised within a single conscious moment and is common to all instances. For in no instance does consciousness not occur in its allotted place. And because only a single kind of contact is comprised within a single conscious moment here, therefore, taking the appropriate sense base as its condition, it is said: "With mentality as condition, the sixth base", giving the mind base alone in the place of the sixfold base. For this is an appropriate condition for a single kind of unprofitable contact.
Again, as above, this seems to ignore the fact that ignorance has a physical impact upon the rupa (physical body), again, as Thanissaro clearly describes below & as the suttas describe in MN 149:
A. As you walk to the door of your parents’ house, thinking about the situation (2b—verbal fabrication), you pull up memories of things your uncle has done in the past (2c—mental fabrication). This provokes anger, causing your breathing to become labored and tight (2a—bodily fabrication). This makes you uncomfortable (2c—mental fabrication), and you are aware of how uncomfortable you feel (3—consciousness). Hormones are released into your bloodstream (4 f through 4i—Form). Without being fully aware that you are making a choice, you choose (4c—intention) to focus (4e— attention) on the perception (4b) of how trapped you feel in this situation. Your consciousness of this idea (5 and 6—mental contact) feels oppressive (7—feeling). You want to find a way out (8—craving).

https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors ... fering.pdf
When one abides inflamed by lust, fettered, infatuated, contemplating gratification, then the five aggregates affected by clinging are built up for oneself in the future; and one’s craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that—increases. One’s bodily and mental troubles increase, one’s bodily and mental torments increase, one’s bodily and mental fevers increase, and one experiences bodily and mental suffering. MN 149

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests