Pali Term: Sakkāya

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Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by Dmytro » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:45 am

Hello Pāli friends,

Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:
Sakkāya is a term for the five aggregates as a collective whole (III 159,10–13). The word is derived from sat + kāya, and literally means “the existing body,” the assemblage of existent phenomena that serve as the objective basis of clinging. Most translators render it “personality,” a practice I followed in MLDB (departing from Ven. Ñāṇamoli, who rendered it, too literally in my view, “embodiment”). But since, under the influence of modern psychology, the word “personality” has taken on connotations quite foreign to what is implied by sakkāya, I now translate it as “identity” (a suggestion made to me by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu). Sakkāya-diṭṭhi accordingly becomes “identity view,” the view of a self existing either behind or among the five aggregates.

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/connecte ... troduction
In Cūḷavedalla sutta:
Sakkāyo sakkāyoti ayye vuccati. Katamo nu kho ayye sakkāyo vutto bhagavatāti?

Pañca kho ime āvuso visākha upādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā. Seyyathīdaṃ:
rūpūpādānakkhandho vedanūpādānakkhandho saññūpādānakkhandho
saṅkhārūpādānakkhandho viññāṇūpādānakkhandho. Ime kho āvuso visākha
pañcupādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatāti.
sakkāya is explained through appropriation (upādāna) of the five aggregates (khandhā), hence - identity as five aggregates.

Metta, Dmytro

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by davidbrainerd » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:38 am

Since it "literally means 'the existing body,'" I'm thinking it means basically the current existing body, or the body of my current rebirth, so I'd think Ven. Ñāṇamoli's translation "embodiment" is the best, and "identity" is not since its so abstract and doesn't include the concept of the body in a clear way.

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:17 am

The suttas below show when sakkaya is cut, the body & mind still exists. Therefore, it seems sakkaya cannot mean a physically existing physical body. The term is probably best examined in its contextual usage.
Bhikkhus, there are these ten fetters. What ten? The five lower fetters and the five higher fetters. And what are the five lower fetters? Sakkāyadiṭṭhi, doubt, wrong grasp of behavior and observances, sensual desire, and ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And what are the five higher fetters? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. These, bhikkhus, are the ten fetters.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an10.13
These five aggregates clung to as one's own (upadana) are the sakkāyo described by the Blessed One. MN 44

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
But when attending to the cessation of sakkaya, his mind leaps up at the cessation of sakkaya, grows confident, steadfast & released in the cessation of sakkaya. When his mind is rightly-gone, rightly developed, has rightly risen above, gained release, and become disjoined from sakkaya, then whatever fermentations, torments, & fevers there are that arise in dependence on sakkaya, he is released from them. He does not experience that feeling. This is expounded as the escape from sakkaya.

From the lack of any obsession with sensuality, the lack of any obsession with ill will… to harmfulness… to form… to ssakkaya, he is called a monk without attachment. He has cut through craving, has turned away from the fetter, and by rightly breaking through conceit he has put an end to suffering & stress.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an5.200
The noble ones have seen as happiness (Sukhaṃ diṭṭhamariyebhi)
The ceasing of sakkaya (sakkāyassa nirodhanaṃ)
This view of those who clearly see
Runs counter to the entire world.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.136

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:52 am

Dmytro wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:45 am
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:
Sakkāya The word is derived from sat + kāya, and literally means “the existing body,”
PTS states sat + kāya. Sorry to ask what might be a dumb question but why is it sat + kāya rather than sa + kāya? Thanks

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by Dmytro » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:30 am

Hi DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:52 am
PTS states sat + kāya. Sorry to ask what might be a dumb question but why is it sat + kāya rather than sa + kāya?
That's how it is explained in the Commentary.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sakkaaya.htm

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:29 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:30 am
That's how it is explained in the Commentary.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sakkaaya.htm
Thanks for that Dmytro. I think sva-kāya ('own group' or 'own body') makes much more sense. Regards

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by davidbrainerd » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:17 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:52 am
Dmytro wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:45 am
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:
Sakkāya The word is derived from sat + kāya, and literally means “the existing body,”
PTS states sat + kāya. Sorry to ask what might be a dumb question but why is it sat + kāya rather than sa + kāya? Thanks
I think its the doubling of the k. i.e that sa + kaya would be sakaya, but sat + kaya the t from sat assimilates to an extra k, sakkaya. Am I correct in this?

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:07 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:17 am
I think its the doubling of the k. i.e that sa + kaya would be sakaya, but sat + kaya the t from sat assimilates to an extra k, sakkaya. Am I correct in this?
Yes. Sa + kāya gives the commentarial word sakāya, "one's own body", which is the opposite of parakāya, "another's body".

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:30 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:38 am
Since it "literally means 'the existing body,'" I'm thinking it means basically the current existing body, or the body of my current rebirth, so I'd think Ven. Ñāṇamoli's translation "embodiment" is the best, and "identity" is not since its so abstract and doesn't include the concept of the body in a clear way.
Per the question below, what exactly is the cutting of the view of "embodiment" that results in stream-entry? In other words, what does the term "embodiment view" ("sakkaya ditthi") supposed to mean?
Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:07 am
Yes. Sa + kāya gives the commentarial word sakāya, "one's own body", which is the opposite of parakāya, "another's body".
So what does "existing body" supposed to mean in relation to stream-entry; that a stream-enterer no longer has the view of an "existing body"? This seems quite alien from the stream-entry of Kondanna, which I assume occurred from discerning the arising & cessation of craving, becoming, attachment & self-view. How is the term "sat" related to attachment (upadana); given sakkaya is defined as the upadana khandha? Does "sat" have any connotations of a personal pronoun? Thanks
Imasmiñca pana vey­yāka­ra­ṇas­miṃ bhaññamāne āyasmato koṇḍaññassa virajaṃ vītamalaṃ dhammacakkhuṃ udapādi: “yaṃ kiñci samuda­ya­dhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirodhadhamman”ti.

And while this discourse was being spoken, there arose in the Venerable Kondañña the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by Dmytro » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:51 am

I wonder if this word literally means "is-a-body", and hence "identification with the body".

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:45 pm

I suppose this makes sense (although it seems more applicable to the three characteristics than to the noble truths):
Sat (Sanskrit: सत्) is a Sanskrit word meaning "the true essence and that "which is unchangeable" of an entity, species or existence. Sat is a common prefix in ancient Indian literature and variously implies that which is good, true, virtuous, being, happening, real, existing, enduring, lasting, essential.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sat_(Sanskrit)

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by Dmytro » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:37 am

Saṃyutta Nikāya, khandhavaggo n, 1. khandhasaṃyuttaṃ, 5. attadīpavaggo n, 2. paṭipadāsuttaṃ n (SN 22.44)

44. The Way

♦ 44. sāvatthinidānaṃ. “sakkāyasamudayagāminiñca vo, bhikkhave, paṭipadaṃ desessāmi, sakkāyanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadaṃ. taṃ suṇātha.

At Savatthi.
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the way leading to the origination of identity and the way leading to the cessation of identity. Listen to that….

katamā ca, bhikkhave, sakkāyasamudayagāminī paṭipadā? idha, bhikkhave, assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṃ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto, sappurisānaṃ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto, rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ; attani vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ. vedanaṃ attato... saññaṃ... saṅkhāre... viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati, viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ; attani vā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ. ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, ‘sakkāyasamudayagāminī paṭipadā, sakkāyasamudayagāminī paṭipadā’ti. iti hidaṃ, bhikkhave, vuccati ‘dukkhasamudayagāminī samanupassanā’ti. ayamevettha attho”.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the origination of identity? Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling … regards form as self … feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self … or self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the origination of identity. When it is said, ‘The way leading to the origination of identity,’ the meaning here is this: a way of regarding things that leads to the origination of suffering.

♦ “katamā ca, bhikkhave, sakkāyanirodhagāminī paṭipadā? idha, bhikkhave, sutavā ariyasāvako ariyānaṃ dassāvī ariyadhammassa kovido ariyadhamme suvinīto, sappurisānaṃ dassāvī sappurisadhammassa kovido sappurisadhamme suvinīto, na rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ; na attani vā rūpaṃ, na rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ. na vedanaṃ attato... na saññaṃ... na saṅkhāre... na viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati, na viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ; na attani vā viññāṇaṃ, na viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ. ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, ‘sakkāyanirodhagāminī paṭipadā, sakkāyanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti. iti hidaṃ, bhikkhave, vuccati ‘dukkhanirodhagāminī samanupassanā’ti. ayamevettha attho”ti.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of identity? Here, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple … does not regard form as self … nor feeling as self … nor perception as self … nor volitional formations as self … nor consciousness as self … nor self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the cessation of identity. When it is said, ‘The way leading to the cessation of identity,’ the meaning here is this: a way of regarding things that leads to the cessation of suffering.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.44

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by Dmytro » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:31 am

Seems like "is-a-body" version is substantiated:
Sakkāyadiṭṭhīti vijjamānaṭṭhena sati khandhapañcakasaṅkhāte kāye; sayaṃ vā satī tasmiṃ kāye diṭṭhīti ‘sakkāyadiṭṭhi’.

Abhi-a Dhs, 3. Nikkhepakaṇḍo, Tikanikkhepakathā, para. 17

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by Dmytro » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:38 am

From Chachakka sutta:

The Origination of Identity

Ayaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, sakkā­ya­sa­muda­ya­gāminī paṭipadā—cakkhuṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati;
rūpe ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati; cakkhuviññāṇaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati; cak­khu­samphas­saṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati; vedanaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati; taṇhaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati;


“Now, bhikkhus, this is the way leading to the origination of identity. i One regards the eye thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ One regards forms thus…One regards eye-consciousness thus…One regards eye-contact thus…One regards feeling thus…One regards craving thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’

sotaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati … pe … ghānaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati … pe … jivhaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati … pe … kāyaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati … pe … manaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati, dhamme ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati, manoviññāṇaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati, manosamphassaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati, vedanaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati, taṇhaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati.

ii–vi “One regards the ear thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’…One regards the nose thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’…One regards the tongue thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’…One regards the body thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’…One regards the mind thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ One regards mind-objects thus…One regards mind-consciousness thus…One regards mind-contact thus…One regards feeling thus…One regards craving thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’

The Cessation of Identity

Ayaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, sakkā­ya­nirodha­gāminī paṭipadā—cakkhuṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati.
Rūpe ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati. Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati. Cak­khu­samphas­saṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati. Vedanaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati. Taṇhaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati.


“Now, bhikkhus, this is the way leading to the cessation of identity. i One regards the eye thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ One regards forms thus…One regards eye-consciousness thus…One regards eye-contact thus…One regards feeling thus…One regards craving thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

Sotaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati … pe … ghānaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati … pe … jivhaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati … pe … kāyaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati … pe … manaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati. Dhamme ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati. Manoviññāṇaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati. Manosamphassaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati. Vedanaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati. Taṇhaṃ ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti samanupassati.

ii–vi “One regards the ear thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’…One regards the nose thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’…One regards the tongue thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’…One regards the body thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’…One regards the mind thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ One regards mind-objects thus…One regards mind-consciousness thus…One regards mind-contact thus…One regards feeling thus…One regards craving thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn148

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Re: Pali Term: Sakkāya

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:05 am

Dmytro wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:37 am
“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the origination of identity? Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling … regards form as self … feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self … or self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the origination of identity. When it is said, ‘The way leading to the origination of identity,’ the meaning here is this: a way of regarding things that leads to the origination of suffering.
Dmytro wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:38 am
“Now, bhikkhus, this is the way leading to the origination of identity. i One regards the eye thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ One regards forms thus…One regards eye-consciousness thus…One regards eye-contact thus…One regards feeling thus…One regards craving thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’
Thank you Dmytro. These appear to be excellent quotes showing the meaning of the term 'sakkaya' in context.

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