Viable Pāli etymologies

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Coëmgenu
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Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:37 pm

ToVincent wrote:Rittaka [ritta+ka]
Ritta [pp.of riñcati]:
- devoid of, empty of.
DEVOID OF KA.
Do you think Abhidhammika means "Abhidhamma of KA"?

Presuming you mean "KA" to be some sort of shorthand for kāya, of course, substantiated here:
ToVincent wrote:Sakkāyadiṭṭhi (S/self-view) [saṃ+Ka+iya - lit. (identifying) "with what belongs to Ka"]; that is to say the identity-view with Atta (Self), as well as the identity-view with one of his attas (selves), is just about believing that one's satta is Ka (Atman>>Brahma>>Prajāpati) - in an extensive, spreading, constant & continual way. To the point that ka (the body*) becomes one and immortal with Brahma or Brahma/Ātman.
As believed in late Vedic times (and particularly in the Upaniṣads, quite contemporary with the Buddha).
*here "body" has a larger range in Indian philosophy, than the meaning we usually attach to it.


It doesn't obviously , this is a rhetorical question asking you to defend your use of ancient vedic etymologies, few of which would have been generally known at the time of the Buddha, to define Pāli words, designed to be "known" at the time of the Buddha (or, at the very least, by the sangha at the time of the standardizing of the Pāli texts). "Ancient (and defunct and largely unknown, by the time of the Buddha,) etymology is not contemporaneous meaning" being the critique at hand.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by ToVincent » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:36 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Presuming you mean "KA" to be some sort of shorthand for kāya, of course,
॰ईय -īya forms possessives in Sanskrit.

Also, a knowledge of the meaning of "body" in Vedic philosophy might help.
As I said in my post referenced below (on which you draw the above), it has quite a broader range, than the physical body we usually attribute it.
But for that, you have to admit the influence of Veda on the Kṣatriya Buddha. Something you have quite a hard time, with your friends, to admit.

From:
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 20#p436609
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:54 am

ToVincent wrote:As I said in my post referenced below (on which you draw the above), it has quite a broader range, than the physical body we usually attribute it.
Much like corpus in Latin, but that does not demonstrate any proof that "KA" is short for kāya, in any scribal shorthand, let alone Pāli manuscripts.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by ToVincent » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:27 am

Coëmgenu wrote:that does not demonstrate any proof that "KA" is short for kāya, in any scribal shorthand, let alone Pāli manuscripts.
We are not talking Pali - but Veda ("Vedic/Sanskrit").
Veda - This is what the Buddha draws his philosophy and Dhamma from.
There are no pre-Buddhist philosophical Pali works, for what I know.

Ka means the god Ka (a.k.a. Prajāpati = Self).
Kāya, if refering to Vedism, is Ka+iya = lit. what belongs to Ka.

You never wondered why sakkāyadiṭṭhi is translated as "self-view" - (viz. identifying with Self); and not "body-view"?
Have I told you before that the god Ka is Prājapati? The Self. (see references in the link to the thread above).
More precisely that the god Ka is the Self/self.

To go through the relationship of the god Ka/Prājapati, the word body (kāya - KātyŚr.), and the root √ ci that relates to (building) the sacrificial altar (and thus directly to Ka), is beyond my desire to enter an unending & worthless discussion.
I am too afraid to enter the arena of the great scholarship of the Bronkhorst type, who once wrote, that Buddha was a śramana, and that he never met any Brahmins in his life, because Brahminism had not yet reached Maghada !?!?!
That leaves quite an impact on the not less "schlolared" readers of his - trust me. And for some time.
(Who grants them anyway?)
I am a bit tired to argue with such advanced intelligence.

I admit that saṃ might be replaced by sat. Only if the latter bears the meaning of "enduring, lasting".
But that would not change the underlying construct of a an enduring, lasting (continual) Self/self named Ka, in late Vedic creed, (as seen in the thread linked above).
Ka & Kāya are too intermingled, as far as the meaning of "body" extends, in most of the late Vedic Dharmas.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by binocular » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:43 pm

You might want to ask some prasangikas for help ...
*facepalm*
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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:30 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:that does not demonstrate any proof that "KA" is short for kāya, in any scribal shorthand, let alone Pāli manuscripts.
We are not talking Pali - but Veda ("Vedic/Sanskrit").
So do you admit then that etymologies like this:

ToVincent wrote:Ka means the god Ka (a.k.a. Prajāpati = Self).
Kāya, if refering to Vedism, is Ka+iya = lit. what belongs to Ka.

You never wondered why sakkāyadiṭṭhi is translated as "self-view" - (viz. identifying with Self); and not "body-view"?
Have I told you before that the god Ka is Prājapati? The Self. (see references in the link to the thread above).
More precisely that the god Ka is the Self/self.

To go through the relationship of the god Ka/Prājapati, the word body (kāya - KātyŚr.), and the root √ ci that relates to (building) the sacrificial altar (and thus directly to Ka), is beyond my desire to enter an unending & worthless discussion.
Are of little functional value to those of us specifically interested in Pāli, not an autodidactic reconstruction of the near-Proto-Indo-European roots of Vedic Sanskrit? Pāli being the language that the Buddhavacana is preserved in, not Vedic, "Veda", or Vedic Sanskrit.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:33 pm

binocular wrote:You might want to ask some prasangikas for help ...
*facepalm*
I think its possible that if I were do bring some for help, I would be told that prāsaṅgika truly means "prāsaṅgi of KA"
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by binocular » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:44 pm

"When in doubt, always resort to an reductio ad absurdum."
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:09 pm

binocular wrote:"When in doubt, always resort to an reductio ad absurdum."
No, Binocular. I was being serious.

prāsaṅgika = prā (towards) + saṅga (touching) of Ka.

The prāsaṅgika are those who touch Self (Ka) with their wisdom. I bet you thought they were a subschool of Madhyamaka. Luckily, I know my etymologies, and can correct Buddhists in their wrong views.

Similarly, कायक (kāyaka) is the "kāya (KA + īya) of Ka". Its all rather meta with that compound.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by Dmytro » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:00 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:prāsaṅgika = prā (towards) + saṅga (touching) of KA.
That's how it happens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToG3Q9e7zWE

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:02 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:The prāsaṅgika are those who touch Self (Ka) with their wisdom. I bet you thought they were a subschool of Madhyamaka. Luckily, I know my etymologies, and can correct Buddhists in their wrong views.
Sounds plausible, and has solid backing from ancient Egyptian sources to boot.
Ka (vital spark)

The Ka (kꜣ) was the Egyptian concept of vital essence, which distinguishes the difference between a living and a dead person, with death occurring when the ka left the body. The Egyptians believed that Khnum created the bodies of children on a potter's wheel and inserted them into their mothers' bodies. Depending on the region, Egyptians believed that Heqet or Meskhenet was the creator of each person's ka, breathing it into them at the instant of their birth as the part of their soul that made them be alive. This resembles the concept of spirit in other religions.

The Egyptians also believed that the ka was sustained through food and drink. For this reason food and drink offerings were presented to the dead, although it was the kau (kꜣw) within the offerings that was consumed, not the physical aspect. The ka was often represented in Egyptian iconography as a second image of the king, leading earlier works to attempt to translate ka as ‘double’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_E ... f_the_soul
It be a witchy thing.
Ka.jpg
Ka.jpg (24.42 KiB) Viewed 962 times
.

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:11 am

Dhammanando wrote:Sounds plausible, and has solid backing from ancient Egyptian sources to boot.
If I may be so bold as to correct you in this regard, bhante, it is not the Egyptian kꜣ, ka, that is being suggested as the "Self/self", but rather, it is being suggested that the "-ka" in rittaka, tucchaka, asāraka, & sakyadiṭṭhi, is none other than a certain "Ka", a Vedic God, also named Prajāpati:

In the twelfth month the horse is locked in an enclosure of aśvattha wood. The vaiśvadeva oblations which are to uplift the sacrifice are consecrated by means of "... to manas, svāhā; (I offer) manas; to Prajāpati svāhā." On several occasions the adhvaryu has to replace the words "together with the gods" by "together with Prajāpati." -tS. 7, 5, 16a and 17a (ṚV. 10, 121, 3 and 2), taken to be addressed to the god Ka, are used during the soma ceremony.
(Jan Gonda,Prajāpati's rise to higher rank, 183)

It is further suggested, I believe, that this association, is vital to understanding those above words with "-ka" in their end.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by ToVincent » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:37 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sujato wrote: The actual referent is the central subject of all true myth: the god who is dead and gone. The connection with the form kāya is a religio-linguistic invention of the grammarians, referenced only in later literature.
Really?!?

Śatapatha-Brāhmaṇa (~700 BCE), as "late" Vedic texts.. That's a new one.
'Hail to Ka ! Hail to the Who! Hail to the Whoever!'
kāya svāhā kasmai svāhā katamasmai svāheti
ŚBr. 13.1.8.3
"Late" knowledge I would say.

-----
"Winning ugly" was something people were supposed to do in the 80's. Wasn't it?
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:59 am

The authors of the Brāhmaṇas had so completely broken with the past, that, forgetful of the poetical character of the hymns (of the Veda) and yearning of the poets after the unknown god, they exalted the interrogative pronoun itself into a deity, and acknowledged a god Ka or Who? In the Taittirīya and in the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa, wherever interrogative verses occur, the author states that Ka is Prajāpati, or the lord of creatures. Nor did they stop here.

Some of the hymns in which the interrogative pronoun occured were called Kadvat, i.e. having kad or quid. But soon a new adjective was formed and not only the hymns but the sacrifices also offered to the god were called Kāya or Who-ish.

At the time of Pāṇini, this word had acquired such legitimacy as to call for a separate rule explaining its formation. The commentator here explains Ka by Brahman. After this we can hardly wonder that in the later Sanskrit literature of the Purāṇas Ka appears as a recognized god, as a supreme god, with a genealogy of his own[...]
(the relevant quotation of Max Müller)
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Viable Pāli etymologies

Post by binocular » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:48 am

Uh. I knew I've heard the word somewhere!
The Mystic Warlords of Ka'a
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