Pali Term: Nimitta

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:12 am

cjmacie wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Hi Sanghamitta,
Sanghamitta wrote:So I think I am grasping what Thannisaro Bhikku is saying..does that imply that we will by various means have our own " themes" to which we are likely to return ?
Thannisaro Bhikku wrote:Unfortunately, we do not have a full treatise on the theory of musical performance as practiced during the Buddha's time, but there are enough references to music scattered through the texts for us to sketch the outlines of that theory. The first step in performance was to tune one's instrument, "establishing" one's tonic note (literally, "base," thana) to make it on-pitch ("even," or sama), then to fine-tune or attune ("ferret out" or "penetrate") the remaining notes (again, "bases") of the scale in relation to the tonic. This required a great deal of skill, sensitivity, and some mathematical knowledge, as the well-tempered scale had not yet been developed, and many different ways of calculating the scale were in use, each appropriate to a different emotion. The musician then picked up the theme (nimitta) of the composition. The theme functioned in several ways, and thus the word "theme" carried several meanings. On the one hand it was the essential message of the piece, the image or impression that the performer wanted to leave in the listener's mind. On the other hand, it was the governing principle that determined what ornamentation or variations would be suitable to the piece.
"Theme" as used in Western ("classical") music can become confusing in the context of music likely to have been know in the Buddha's day. Theme, in the former, denotes a dynamic progression of notes -- like a melody, in briefer form perhaps a motif. In the latter context, music was more likely similar to what's considered "classsical" Indian music, e.g. as known in the West through Ravi Shankar, or, a bit more esoteric, Ali Akbar Khan. Basis, as I understand is know as "raga", that's not a theme like a melody, but more like a "mode" (in history of Western music), or a specific group of notes, and perhaps interval motifs to be the "vocabulary" of a composition. Modes are s/t represented as different scales: whereas today we are left with "major" and "minor" scales, earlier there were many, e.g. "Phrygian", "Dorian", "Ionian", etc. I think the raga is like those, but sparser -- the collection of notes as tones (relationships between) available as context or any particular composition (which, I believe, is essentially always improvised). "Tuning" is actually adjusting the instrument(s) to be able to play those pitches of the raga (or mode, in the other tradition), but not able to play other pitches; and it's likely to be a discontinuous series of tones, rather than continuous like modern scales (and particularly nowhere near any sense of "even-temperament" as is standard today in the West.

(Than-Geoff mentions "well-tempered" scale, probably as in J. S. Bach's "well-tempered clavier". But that was NOT "equal-temperament" as used universally in Western music today. "Equal" means exactly equal intervals throughout the scale, and, consequently, every interval is slightly out-of-tune -- in terms of pure Pythagorean harmonics. Well-tempered was a sort of compromise which allowed one to use all 24 keys of the Western scale, but each one was in- or out-of-tune in a different way; hence giving a certain distinctive "color" to each key. Even temperament didn't become standard until earily 19th-century. Curiously, Ven. Sujato, a former musician, voiced a similar confusion in a discussion once.)

So, theme has more a dynamic sense, especially musically, perhaps also in literature, and, as in "thesis", in academic writing. Nimitta can have that kind of sense? My sense is that it's less process, more like a "sign", a tag -- similar in ways to "lakkhaṇa". Yes, everything phenomenal is in flux, but nimitta / sign provides a way of attaching a handle to it, as also in neurological correlates, for reference back and forth across mental time. Then again, perhaps that quasi static quality is similar to the profound difference in Indian music (perhaps Asian music in general) in contrast to Western music.

Bottom-line: "theme" has overtones, so to speak, which make it a poor fit for nimitta. "Sign" has short-comings too, but fits better on a spatial-temporal axis -- if one had to settle on a single term.
:goodpost:
I am an ethnomusicologist with a heavy interest in archaeomusicology (if only they would pay me to study it), so this is right up my alley, and I approve of this post, although "all 24 keys of the Western scale" doesn't really make sense to a musicologist. I think you have some enharmonics confusion going on. There are only 18-19 possible "keys" in the Western scalar system, but that is just me being persnickety and pedantic, thrilled to see musicology nonetheless represented here.

Although Ven Thanissaro presents a bit of a dated picture of Indic archaeomusicology (I can't blame him, its a fringy subject), we know leagues more about the music of Ancient India than we do of most other contemporaneous cultures of the time.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by cjmacie » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:51 am

Coëmgenu wrote: ...
"all 24 keys of the Western scale" doesn't really make sense to a musicologist. I think you have some enharmonics confusion going on. There are only 18-19 possible "keys" in the Western scalar system...
Maybe it wasn't clear I was referring to the "keys" as in : C-major, c-minor, C#-major,... (as, e.g. used in JS Bach's two volumes "Das Wohltemperierte Klavier") -- not the hardware keys, which you may be referring too? As in -- the Fisk-Nanny organ at Stanford has one manual with "split" keys ("black-keys) to enable playing otherwise non-standard semitones in some Renaissance music -- those total to 18-19?
Coëmgenu wrote:...we know leagues more about the music of Ancient India than we do of most other contemporaneous cultures of the time.
Probably a lot more these days. Back at Berkeley in the 1960's, musicology was strictly European. Later I believe they developed a rather substantial ethno-musicology department? Did you, Coëmgenu, study at Berkeley too?

But, Ravi Shankar was hot back then (e.g. for listening to stoned), and he teamed-up famously with one Ali Akbar Khan on the "oud" (Middle Eastern stringed instrument) performing "raga-s" together. Khan at that time was just establishing a school of Indian music nearby, and would give lecture-concerts. What was gleaned from those is the limit of my knowledge. (Curious, in doing cross-word puzzles, the word "oud" comes up, clued as "instrument for belly dancers". :tongue: )

Once, though, interviewing one of the tabla (drum) players -- I was also a music reviewer -- he invited me to lunch, and taught me something of how to eat that spicy Indian food: add a pile of yogurt on the plate, and mix a bit of hot spicy whatever with a dab of yogurt in every bite.

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:37 am

cjmacie wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote: ...
"all 24 keys of the Western scale" doesn't really make sense to a musicologist. I think you have some enharmonics confusion going on. There are only 18-19 possible "keys" in the Western scalar system...
Maybe it wasn't clear I was referring to the "keys" as in : C-major, c-minor, C#-major,... (as, e.g. used in JS Bach's two volumes "Das Wohltemperierte Klavier") -- not the hardware keys, which you may be referring too? As in -- the Fisk-Nanny organ at Stanford has one manual with "split" keys ("black-keys) to enable playing otherwise non-standard semitones in some Renaissance music -- those total to 18-19?
Aaaaaah yes. Its been a while since I've had to access my "traditional musicology" terminology. Its refreshing :jumping: . I was listing diatonic key centres, not modalities of key centres. By binary-modal reckoning there are about 32-34 "keys" (due to enharmonics, B-major and Cb-major being different "keys").
cjmacie wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:...we know leagues more about the music of Ancient India than we do of most other contemporaneous cultures of the time.
Probably a lot more these days. Back at Berkeley in the 1960's, musicology was strictly European. Later I believe they developed a rather substantial ethno-musicology department? Did you, Coëmgenu, study at Berkeley too?
York and McGill (Canadian universities), Chicago U also has a famous ethnomusicology department.
cjmacie wrote:performing "raga-s" together.
I believe rāg is singular and rāga is plural, but I'm not sure either.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Dmytro » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:09 am

Visuddhimagga instructions for jhana 'on the bloated' clarify the meaning of 'nimitta' in the context of samādhi.
sarīrato nātidūre nāccāsanne padese ṭhitena vā nisinnena vā cakkhuṃ ummīletvā oloketvā nimittaṃ gaṇhitabbaṃ.

Standing in a place not too far from and not too near to the body, he should open his eyes, look and apprehend the nimitta.

“uddhumātakapaṭikkūlaṃ uddhumātakapaṭikkūlan”ti satakkhattuṃ sahassakkhattuṃ ummīletvā oloketabbaṃ, nimmīletvā āvajjitabbaṃ.

He should open his eyes and look a hundred times, a thousand times, [thinking], 'Repulsiveness of the bloated, repulsiveness of the bloated', and he should close his eyes and advert to it.

evaṃ punappunaṃ karontassa uggahanimittaṃ suggahitaṃ hoti. kadā suggahitaṃ hoti? yadā ummīletvā olokentassa nimmīletvā āvajjentassa ca ekasadisaṃ hutvā āpāthamāgacchati, tadā suggahitaṃ nāma hoti.

51. As he does so again and again, the learning nimitta becomes properly apprehended by him. When it is properly apprehended? When it comes into focus alike whether he opens his eyes and looks or closes his eyes and adverts, then it called properly apprehended.

Visuddhimagga VI, 50-51
Here nimitta is an inner representation of the bloated corpse, which is properly apprehended (suggahita) so that it is seen well with closed eyes.

If one gets representation (nimitta) of the visual object through visual contact, one gets visual nimitta.
If one gets representation through touch (e.g. nimitta of air in Anapanasati), one gets tactile nimitta (however, visual components may also be present).

Being a representation of air, nimitta in Anapanasati has a quality of airiness, and when expanded, makes the body feel as if filled with air, as described in Vimuttimagga:
"To the yogin who attends to the incoming breath with mind that is cleansed of the nine lesser defilements the image [nimitta] arises with a pleasant feeling similar to that which is produced in the action of spinning cotton or silk cotton. Also, it is likened to the pleasant feeling produced by a breeze. Thus in breathing in and out, air touches the nose or the lip and causes the setting-up of air perception mindfulness. This does not depend on colour or form. This is called the image. If the yogin develops the image [nimitta] and increases it at the nose-tip, between the eyebrows, on the forehead or establishes it in several places, he feels as if his head were filled with air. Through increasing in this way his whole body is charged with bliss. This is called perfection."

(Vimuttimagga, Mindfulness of Respiration. Procedure, pp.158-159)
https://archive.org/stream/ArahantUpato ... /mode/2up/
since in Anapanasati practice, jhana is a subtype of air kasina jhana:
Kiṃ pana pathavīkasiṇaṃ ādiṃ katvā aṭṭhikasaññāpariyosānāvesā rūpāvacarappanā, udāhu aññāpi atthīti? Atthi; ānāpānajjhānañhi kāyagatāsatibhāvanā ca idha na kathitā. Kiñcāpi na kathitā vāyokasiṇe pana gahite ānāpānajjhānaṃ gahitameva; vaṇṇakasiṇesu ca gahitesu kesādīsu catukkapañcakajjhānavasena uppannā kāyagatāsati, dasasu asubhesu gahitesu dvattiṃsākāre paṭikūlamanasikārajjhānavasena ceva navasivathikāvaṇṇajjhānavasena ca pavattā kāyagatāsati gahitāvāti. Sabbāpi rūpāvacarappanā idha kathitāva hotīti.

"But is this all the absorption belonging to the consciousness of the sphere of refined form, beginning with the earth kasiṇa and ending in the perception of the skeleton? Or is there anything else?"
"Yes, there is. There is ānāpāna jhāna and the development of kāyagatāsati, which have not been spoken of here."
"Why not?"
"Because ānāpāna jhāna is included in the air kasiṇa; the development of kāyagatāsati arisen by virtue of the fourfold and fivefold jhānas with reference to the hair etc., is included in the colour kasiṇas; the kāyagatāsati produced by virtue of the jhānas attending to the unattractiveness in the thirty-two parts of the body, and that of the jhāna attending to the colours of the nine kinds of corpses in the charnel grounds is included in the ten repulsive things. Thus all the absorptions of consciousness connected with the sphere of refined form have been included here."

Dhammasangani-Atthakatha 200

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by cjmacie » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:19 pm

Dmytro wrote:
If one gets representation (nimitta) of the visual object through visual contact, one gets visual nimitta.
If one gets representation through touch (e.g. nimitta of air in Anapanasati), one gets tactile nimitta (however, visual components may also be present).

Being a representation of air, nimitta in Anapanasati has a quality of airiness, and when expanded, makes the body feel as if filled with air, as described in Vimuttimagga: ... and from the ... Dhammasangani-Atthakatha 200 (that's the Atthasālinī?)
I recall also in the Vism that touch is considered s/w special among the sense-doors in that is has qualities of earth (pathavi), air (vayo) and fire (tejo). And as object in anapanasati samadhi, it is touch as very subtle (rupa - "fine"-material), hence suitable for forming an immobile nimitta for jhanic absorption. This in contrast to the use of abdominal breathing, as in Mahasi training, which is taught as more specifically "air" element, i.e. predominantly motion, and, being s/w grosser, does not lend to absorptive concentration (but rather to vipassana khanika samadhi).

The commentarial emphasis on "air" makes sense, in terms of systematization, but less so experientially in practicing anapanasati-samadhi. There can be a sense of fullness in the head, but decisively lacking the motion quality.

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Dmytro » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:28 pm

cjmacie wrote:I recall also in the Vism that touch is considered s/w special among the sense-doors in that is has qualities of earth (pathavi), air (vayo) and fire (tejo). And as object in anapanasati samadhi, it is touch as very subtle (rupa - "fine"-material), hence suitable for forming an immobile nimitta for jhanic absorption.
That's rather about the development of wisdom.

Here I wrote about the meaning of nimitta in the context of composure (samādhi). Visuddhimagga explains the ways in which nimitta is apprehended:
tatra ṭhapetvā vāyokasiṇaṃ sesā nava kasiṇā, dasa asubhāti imāni ekūnavīsati diṭṭhena gahetabbāni. ... ānāpānassati phuṭṭhena, vāyokasiṇaṃ diṭṭhaphuṭṭhena, sesāni aṭṭhārasa sutena gahetabbāni.

"Herein, these nineteen, that is to say, nine kasinas omitting the air kasina and the ten kinds of foulness, must be apprehended by sight. ... Mindfulness of breathing must be apprehended by touch; the air kasina by sight and touch; ..."

Visuddhimagga III, 121
One can apprehend the nimitta of air kasiṇa by sight and touch. In Anapanasati one uses the touch method.
cjmacie wrote:The commentarial emphasis on "air" makes sense, in terms of systematization, but less so experientially in practicing anapanasati-samadhi. There can be a sense of fullness in the head, but decisively lacking the motion quality.
'Motion quality' is also rather about wisdom development, in line with Abhidhamma.

As for samādhi, air kasiṇa is described at:
[4] "There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality [kasina] above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. One perceives the water-totality [kasina]... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality [kasina] above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. These are the ten totalities.

Kosala sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“Again, Udāyin, I have proclaimed to my disciples the way to develop the ten kasiṇa bases. One contemplates the earth kasiṇa above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. Another contemplates the water-kasiṇa… Another contemplates the fire-kasiṇa… Another contemplates the air-kasiṇa… Another contemplates the blue-kasiṇa… Another contemplates the yellow-kasiṇa… Another contemplates the red-kasiṇa…Another contemplates the white-kasiṇa… Another contemplates the space-kasiṇa… Another contemplates the consciousness-kasiṇa above, below, and across, undivided and immeasurable. And thereby many disciples of mine abide having reached the perfection and consummation of direct knowledge.

The Greater Discourse to Sakuludāyin
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn77
It's just when whole perception is coloured by the representation of object-support. In Anapanasati, due to the particular way of apprehending the representation (nimitta), it is tactile.

There are teachers who apply this in practice. Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo wrote:
Keep careful watch over the mind. Keep it one. Keep it intent on a single preoccupation, the refined breath, letting this refined breath suffuse the entire body.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html
Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu puts it in different words:
Think of the breath energy coming in and out of the body through every pore.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu, A Guided Meditation
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... uided.html
however the principle of lettng the representation of object-support colour whole field of perception (in this case, whole tactile perception), stays the same.

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Dmytro » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:36 pm

Richard Shankman puts it in his own words in his book "The Art and Skill of Buddhist Meditation":

"... This dynamic can also shift so you feel the concentration and the breath merging until they become one blended experience. No longer feeling the physical sensations of breathing as being separate from the experience of concentration, you now find that the object of your attention is transformed into a new experience, breath and concentration unified into what we can call samadhi-breath. You might experience the samadhi-breath as the breath blended with light, energy, pleasure, stillness, sound, or any of the experiences we have been talking about. Or, rather than merging just with the breath, samadhi also can expand beyond the breath to fill your whole body.

If subtle breath energy, or any other samadhi experience, suffuses throughout your body, let the process happen. Perhaps you will still be able to individually discern the breath and the concentration, or the concentration suffused throughout the body, but the sense of them merged into one will be stronger."

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by cjmacie » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:54 am

Dmytro wrote:
cjmacie wrote:I recall also in the Vism that touch is considered s/w special among the sense-doors in that is has qualities of earth (pathavi), air (vayo) and fire (tejo). And as object in anapanasati samadhi, it is touch as very subtle (rupa - "fine"-material), hence suitable for forming an immobile nimitta for jhanic absorption.
That's rather about the development of wisdom.

Here I wrote about the meaning of nimitta in the context of composure (samādhi)
...

'Motion quality' is also rather about wisdom development, in line with Abhidhamma.

As for samādhi, air kasiṇa is described at:...
Samadhi-directed nimitta in terms of depictions of a sense of filling with air – the head, the whole body, as often in Thanissaro's guided meditations – do make sense, experientially, though I would associate it more with access (upacarā) samādhi.

This might hinge of the interpretation of appanā (sorry, may be properly another "term" topic). Specifically, in terms of the connotation of "absorption". This is experientially quite distinct – from upacarā or khanika – in that the sense, the perception of "head" or "body" can't arise, short of exiting absorption. Rather than being "filled" with air (or whatever), there's the sense that the mind enters into the nimitta as an aspect of mind itself -- a mental construct refined from the sensory and perceptual aspects used in its development; the nimitta overflows, floods all around the submerged mind. The mind "falls into the nimitta"; the "nimitta "swallows" the mind" (in the words of one teacher -- with deep background in Mahasi and Pa Auk training). Therein is a sense of secluded, fixed, motionless awareness. As if inside a protective sphere: "secluded" in that sensory stimuli are still "out-there", but, so to speak, "bounce" off that sphere on its outside (at least through 3rd jhana); "fixed", "motionless" in that inside the mind doesn't move (to one degree or another depending on the strength of it), doesn't respond to, engage with what's outside. "Head", "body" do not pertain; the mind may well fall back out and perceive a sense of head or body, say with a some motion, pain, etc., but that's a shift out of absorption. (Not to say that shifting in & out of absorption is not a method, perhaps a crucial practice of alternating samadhi and vipassana as mental training.)

It appears, from at least PTS Dictionary definitions, that this sense is buried in the term "appanā" and the verb it's ostensibly derived from "appeti" – "… to insert or put together… to rush on, run into (of river) [like "submerge"?]… to fit in, fix,… insert,… to impale…"

(Some good discussion of "appanā-samādhi" buried away somewhere here in DhammaWheel, or elsewhere?)

postby Dmytro » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:36 am
…Richard Shankman…
From knowing well his first book ("The Experience of Samadhi"), and a day of talks, demonstrations he led soon after its publication (where he autographed my copy), my sense is that he was referring to something more like access-concentration, which also is demonstrated in the quotations provided from his newer book:
"… merging … blended … Perhaps you will still be able to individually discern the breath and the concentration, or the concentration suffused throughout the body, but the sense of them merged into one will be stronger."
Perhaps elsewhere he gets more into interpreting in terms of "absorption"?

Btw, is "samadhi-breath" a canonical term?

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Dmytro » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:07 pm

Thank you for experiential description.
cjmacie wrote:It appears, from at least PTS Dictionary definitions, that this sense is buried in the term "appanā" and the verb it's ostensibly derived from "appeti" – "… to insert or put together… to rush on, run into (of river) [like "submerge"?]… to fit in, fix,… insert,… to impale…"

(Some good discussion of "appanā-samādhi" buried away somewhere here in DhammaWheel, or elsewhere?)
People rarely discuss terms. You are welcome to start a new topic on appanā. I will contribute there at least several Pali definitions.
Perhaps elsewhere he gets more into interpreting in terms of "absorption"?
I doubt it. Though, on the pages that follow, he describes samādhi without bodily awareness.
cjmacie wrote:Btw, is "samadhi-breath" a canonical term?
Not at all. Seems like even teachers have a hard time finding a proper terminology for this colouring of perception by object-support.

Ven. Thanissaro gives a detailed experiential description of "de-perception", with recognition (saññā) precisely tuned to "breath energy":
Do you feel that your immediate experience of the body is of the solid parts, and that they have to manage the mechanics of breathing, which is secondary? What happens if you conceive your immediate experience of the body in a different way, as a field of primary breath energy, with the solidity simply a label attached to certain aspects of the breath? Whatever you experience as a primary body sensation, think of it as already breath, without your having to do anything more to it. How does that affect the level of stress and strain in the breathing?

...

Ultimately, when you reach a perception of the breath that allows the sensations of in-and-out breathing to grow still, you can start questioning more subtle perceptions of the body. It's like tuning into a radio station. If your receiver isn't precisely tuned to the frequency of the signal, the static interferes with the subtleties of whatever is being transmitted. But when you're precisely tuned, every nuance comes through. The same with your sensation of the body: when the movements of the breath grow still, the more subtle nuances of how perception interacts with physical sensation come to the fore. The body seems like a mist of atomic sensations, and you can begin to see how your perceptions interact with that mist. To what extent is the shape of the body inherent in the mist? To what extent is it intentional — something added? What happens when you drop the intention to create that shape? Can you focus on the space between the droplets in the mist? What happens then? Can you stay there? What happens when you drop the perception of space and focus on the knowing? Can you stay there? What happens when you drop the oneness of the knowing? Can you stay there? What happens when you try to stop labeling anything at all?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ption.html
which reminds of Potthapada sutta, where Buddha describes how "with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases" (Sikkhā ekā saññā uppajjanti, sikkhā ekā saññā nirujjhanti).

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by ToVincent » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:28 pm

"oh that is what salt tastes like"
V. S. Ramachandran, neuroscientist & brahmin.
Above is a definition of qualia.
Is the mental state (quale,) related to the "something it is like to have that experience"; inside or outside my head is one question.
But is the "salty", the sensual sign (nimitta,) outside or inside my head; is another question. The taste is certaily inside, but where does the "salty" lies?

Can we then, agree with Stephen Hodges when he considers nimitta to be exclusively a percept ("in your head"); or is nimitta also external to satta?
Hodges wrote: a percept is in your head while a sense object is exterior to your senses, outside of your body, with the exception of dharmas as objects of mano-viññāna or its equivalent.

Nimittas are created inside the individual by saññā.
...
A nimitta is a result of synthesized raw sense data, combined with vedanā, and, usually, also involves a labelling process
...
Colours, sounds, and smells, by the time you identify them as such, are not sense objects, they are mental constructs.
...
I understand "nimitta" to be roughly equivalent to basic sense, perceptual data or just percepts, such as colours, shapes, sounds and so forth.
Perceptual data derived from the external world are mediated by consciousness (viññāṇa) and apprehended by saññā. In other words, I believe that "nimitta" are mental phenomena rather than external things per se.
...
I normally translate "nimitta" as "perceptual form".
What does the suttas (with parallel) say?
He does not grasp at any sign or details by which — if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye — evil, unskillful qualities...
DN2
He does not grasp the "salty".
**Guard the doors** to his sense faculties
AN 4.37
(Restraint) - He does not let the signs in.
He does not let the "salty" in (the internal sphere of sense -tongue faculty).
This pleads in favor of an external nimitta.
And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sensual desire and for the increase and expansion of arisen sensual desire? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the beautiful: frequently giving careless attention to it is the nutriment...
...
And what, bhikkhus, is the denourishment that prevents unarisen sensual desire from arising and arisen sensual desire from increasing and expanding? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of foulness: frequently giving careful attention to it is the denourishment...
SN 47.51
Careless attention (to sign of beauty) => letting it in ( => consciousness).

Careful attention (to sign of foulness) => Not letting the sign of beauty in.

Sign of beauty (in) + sense faculty => consciousness > contact > sensual desire.

Careful attention is a voluntary, intended, repellant process.
The sign does not "come in"

Careless attention is an involuntary, unintended, absorbefacient process.
The sign "comes in".
And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of concentration and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of concentration? There are, bhikkhus, the sign of serenity, the sign of nondispersal.
SN 47.51
This time, the sign is internal. It is the sign of the "own (voluntary) mind".
While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign.
SN 47.10
The sign of "slugishness" is replaced by some "own mind's" sign.
So after that, Ven. Sona determined the right pitch for his persistence, attuned the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there picked up his sign.
AN 6.55
Again the sign is "his" sign (internal).
when a bhikkhu is giving attention to some sign, and owing to that sign there arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then he should give attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome.
MN 20

Here, "external/other", intended sign comes in - and should be replaced by "internal/own" intended chosen sign.
Venerable sir, how should one know, how should one see so that, in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit no longer occur within?”

“Any kind of form whatsoever, bhikkhu, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near—one sees all form as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

Idem with feeling, perception, volitional formations, consciousness.

“When one knows and sees thus, bhikkhu, then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit no longer occur within.”
SN 22.82
The meditator must differentiate the external signs from himself - but also must differentiate between a body without consciousness (own signs, that do not mix with the faculties); and a body whose own mental signs are mixing with the sense faculties ("body with consciousness).

How is consciousness said to be scattered & diffused? There is the case where a form is seen with the eye, and consciousness follows the drift of (lit.: 'flows after') the sign of the form, is tied to the attraction of the sign of the form, is chained to the attraction of the sign of the form, is fettered & joined to the attraction of the sign of the form:
Consciousness is said to be externally scattered & diffused.
Idem for ear, nose,...
MN 138
The "external/other" sign, that is not intended, and that has an absorbefacient inclination, can induces a scattered & diffused consciousness.
Develop the sign-less.
SN 8.4
Eat salty, but don't taste (and enjoy) the "salty".
Eat "yucky", but don't taste (and loath) the "yucky".
Seeing a form — mindfulness lapsed — attending to the sign of 'endearing,' impassioned in mind, one feels and remains fastened there.
SN 35.95
The meditator is attached to the "external" signs.
And how, householder, does one roam about without abode? Diffusion and confinement in the abode consisting in the sign of forms: these have been abandoned by the Tathagata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so that they are no more subject to future arising.
SN 22.3
The abode of the external spheres of senses (bases).
As he remains thus focused on body, feelings, mind & mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that fact. As a result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, together with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that?

Because the wise, experienced, skillful monk picks up on the sign of his own mind."
paṇḍito byatto kusalo bhikkhu sakassa cittassa nimittaṃ uggaṇhātī”ti
SN 47.8
Dwelling within the four establishments of mindfulness with voluntary signs (external & internal).
Meditate on the signless,
Throw out the underlying tendency to conceit,
And when you have a breakthrough in understanding conceit,
You will live at peace.”
Thag 21.1
Then forget about the "signs of your own mind"
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Dmytro » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:40 pm

ToVincent wrote:Is the mental state (quale,) related to the "something it is like to have that experience"; inside or outside my head is one question.
But is the "salty", the sensual sign (nimitta,) outside or inside my head; is another question. The taste is certaily inside, but where does the "salty" lies?

Can we then, agree with Stephen Hodges when he considers nimitta to be exclusively a percept ("in your head"); or is nimitta also external to satta?
Good question.

In some contexts the word 'nimitta' does mean external sign. But unfortunately, in cases when it does mean internal representation, the English translation is often skewed to preserve the uniformity of terms. One of such cases is experession "nimittaṃ gaṇhāti" (apprehends the representation).

Visuddhimagga (XIV 130) explains the recognition (saññā) in such a way:
"sabbāva sañjānanalakkhaṇā, tadevetanti puna sañjānanapaccayanimittakaraṇarasā dāruādīsu tacchakādayo viya, yathāgahitanimittavasena abhinivesakaraṇapaccupaṭṭhānā hatthidassakāndhā (udā. 54) viya, yathāupaṭṭhitavisayapadaṭṭhānā tiṇapurisakesu migapotakānaṃ purisāti uppannasaññā viyāti."

"All (saññā) has the characteristic of recognition (sañjānana); its property is the making of representation (nimitta) that is a condition of recognizing again, 'this is the very same thing' - as carpenters and so on do with the wood, etc.; its manifestation is the producing of conviction by virtue of a representation (nimitta) that has been accordingly learnt - like the blind perceiving the elephant ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ); its basis is whatever object that has come near - like the recognition (saññā) 'people' that arises for young animals in respect of scarecrows."

Ven. Analayo writes in his book "Compassion and Emptiness in Early Buddhist Meditation":
The term “sign” renders the Pāli word nimitta. A nimitta is a sign in the sense that it can refer to the outward characteristic mark of things. These characteristics are the signs, the sign-als, that make it possible to recognize things.

...

In relation to the process of perception in general, the nimitta is what causes one to recognize something. An illustrative example for this function of the nimitta can be gathered from a situation depicted in the Raṭṭhapāla-sutta. Raṭṭhapāla had gone forth against the wish of his parents. After a long time had passed, he decided to visit his home town. Having arrived there, he approached his parental house while begging for alms. Seeing him from afar, his father did not recognize him and started abusing him, expressing his resentment towards these shaven-headed recluses who he felt had lured his only son away from him. Raṭṭhapāla turned around and left.

Here the father had not been able to recognize the characteristic marks, nimitta, of his own son, probably because he had never seen him dressed as a monk and with shaven head. In addition to the different outer attire, Raṭṭhapāla would also have been walking in a more self-restrained manner than earlier, when he was still living at home. All these differences, combined with the fact that the father only saw the monk from afar, would have made recognition difficult.

The story does not end here. A female servant left the house to throw away some stale food. Raṭṭhapāla approached her and asked that she give the food to him, instead of throwing it away. On coming close to Raṭṭhapāla to do that, the female servant recognized that this monk was the son of the head of her household. The Raṭṭhapāla-sutta and one of its parallels preserved in the Madhyama-āgama agree in using the term nimitta (and its Chinese equivalent) in this context, specifying that she recognized Raṭṭhapāla by the nimitta of his hands and feet, as well as by the nimitta of his voice.34

This shows the functioning of a nimitta as a central factor in the operational mechanics of memory and recognition. It is with the help of the nimitta that the perception aggregate is able to match information received through the senses with concepts, ideas, and memories.
The term "nimitta" can indeed mean "sign", but in this context the usage of "sign" is strained, and seems to result from current tendency to find one translation of the term for all contexts.

Let's examine the sentence from Ratthapala sutta mentioned by Analayo:

"Atha kho āyasmato raṭṭhapālassa ñātidāsī taṃ ābhidosikaṃ kummāsaṃ āyasmato raṭṭhapālassa patte ākirantī hatthānañca pādānañca sarassa ca nimittaṃ aggahesi."

First, "nimitta" here is singular, and not plural 'sign-als', 'characteristic marks', or "characteristic features" in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
... While she was doing so, she recognised the characteristic features of his hands, his feet, and his voice.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn82
Secondly, what causes one to recognize something is not some features of the object, but rather an inner representation of the object that one has acquired previously (as explained in Visuddhimagga passage above). When this inner representation turns out to be congruent with what one perceives, then one recognises the object.

So the literal translation of this sentence would be:

"While a slavewoman belonging to one of venerable Raṭṭhapāla's relatives was pouring some old porridge into venerable Raṭṭhapāla's bowl, she apprehended (gaṇhāti) her inner representation (nimitta) of his hands, his feet, and his voice."

This apprehension is a controllable mental act, as described in instructions on guarding sense doors:
'ehi tvaṃ bhikkhu, indriyesu guttadvāro hohi, cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā mā nimittaggāhī ..."

Go, monk, guard well the doors of sense faculties. Seeing form with vision, don't apprehend the representation ...

(MN 107 and other suttas)
and this apprehension (gaṇhāti) differs somewhat from recognition (saññā), since it describes a part of recognition when one attends to inner representation, without part of using sense faculties, or of making a representation.
And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sensual desire and for the increase and expansion of arisen sensual desire? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the beautiful: frequently giving careless attention to it is the nutriment...
...
And what, bhikkhus, is the denourishment that prevents unarisen sensual desire from arising and arisen sensual desire from increasing and expanding? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of foulness: frequently giving careful attention to it is the denourishment...
SN 47.51
Careless attention (to sign of beauty) => letting it in ( => consciousness).

Careful attention (to sign of foulness) => Not letting the sign of beauty in.
The sensual desire often increases in absence of physical object, when one recalls and contemplates the attractiveness of something.
Similarly, dispassion can grow in absence of physical object, when one gives attention to inner representation of bloated corpse, or similar.
Meditate on the signless,
Throw out the underlying tendency to conceit,
And when you have a breakthrough in understanding conceit,
You will live at peace.”
Thag 21.1
Then forget about the "signs of your own mind"
You may find useful the thread on "animitta":

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16303

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:01 pm

Dmytro wrote:.....
Hi! Dmytro,

Thanks for your references on nimitta and animitta.

I hope, you will not be offended if I say that I never rely to the Visuddhimagga or other commentaries; and that I stick only to the suttas that have parallels in the other books.
So I will keep only the good references of your early suttas; which are sufficient by themselves.

That being said, there is plenty to discuss here.

If "nimittaṃ gaṇhāti" means "apprehends the representation"; we still have to define clearly what this "representation" is.

From the reading of the EBTs, this representation is either internal or external.
- External, when you see a tree, and that, it's sensual representation is its visual form, defined by colors.
- External, when you taste a grain of salt, and that the saltiness in the grain, is it's sensual representation.
- Internal, when you have a mental cognitive content of something that is not there externally (imagination - maññita).
- Internal, when you have your own cognitive content of the clinging khandhas; or the four establishments of mindfulness, etc. Or when you pick up the representation (sign) of your own mind to counteract the external representations (signs) that have turned into clinging khandhas, or present in the dwellings of four establishments of mindfulness, etc.

In any case this representation (sign) has one single meaning, it seems.
The sensual "salty" in the tasted salt - The sensual "visual forms (colors)" in the sighted form - The sensual "minty" in the smelled mint - The sensual "tuny" in the heard (sound) guitar - The sensual "in-put mental object", or the reasoned "ex-cogitation" in the intellected thought.

When the representation (sign), e.g. "salty", interacts with the ajjattika āyatana's indriya (the external base/sphere of sense), viz. the tongue's faculty; there is consciousness. Not sañña (perception,) as Hodges believes; but sense-consciousness (tongue-consciousness).

The difficulty resides in the interaction between: :

1.
a. the representation (sign) of the thought in the external base (sphere of senses - bāhirāni āyatanāni), and
b. the intellect (mano).

and

2.
a. the representation (sign) of the ex-cogitated thought in mano itself (representation/sign of one's own mind) and
b. the intellect (mano).

For instance,
1. when someone you confront, sends a bad thought; if you let this sensual ill-will sign (representation) interact with your intellect's faculty; then mind/intellect consciousness ensues, with contact; then feeling, then perception, then thinking.

2. This last thinking is still a thought of ill-will; but you could change it by ex-cogitating a new sign (representation) of your own. You could then "pick the sign of your own mind". Like a thought of good-will; whose sign (representation) is just "good-willy".
If we were to compare that with the analogy of the grain of salt, there would be no salt in the process; just the "salty". For what comes out of the mind is manomaya (mental), as you know.
"Good-willy" as in "salty".

Note:
Passion, aversion and delusion are also a making of representations (sign-nimitta). They are to be added to #2 above.


Let us digest this, before going further with "representation-less awareness-release".
There is indeed, by definition, a long path to reach the representation/sign-less cetosamādhi.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Dmytro » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:59 pm

ToVincent wrote:I hope, you will not be offended if I say that I never rely to the Visuddhimagga or other commentaries; and that I stick only to the suttas that have parallels in the other books.
So I will keep only the good references of your early suttas; which are sufficient by themselves.
I'm not offended - you have a right to think on your own. However, for discussion to be meaningful, we need a common basis of textual sources. Suttas don't give all the definitions, and wider textual basis is necessary - which would include all strata of Pali texts, and even texts in other languages of Buddhism.

Stephen Hodge, for example, has an advantage of studying a wide variety of texts:
http://www.harperreach.com/author/stephen-hodge/

I've read some "Early Buddhism" research, and discovered it depends very much on personal preferences of the "Early Buddhism" authors, who create their own reconstructions of "Early Buddhism".

My conclusions may also have some errors, but at least I consult wide variety of texts, early and late Pali, and even sometimes Sanskrit, Tibetan and Chinese, to make conclusions reliable. Of course, Visuddhimagga is less authoritative and reliable than Suttanta, but modern Early Buddhism reconstructions turn out to be even less reliable.

Modern trend of rejecting "Commentaries" seems misdirected to me. The actual Commentaries are mostly unknown and poorly studied.
People tend to direct their rejection of common Asian religious practices to "Commentaries" - as if those "Commentaries" are nowadays exactly applied in practice in Asian Buddhism. In reality, they are largely forgotten or distorted.

You refer to English translations, - and I wonder if you are aware that they deeply reflect the Western "Commentary" as a product of Western Buddhology. When you plant seeds, you need them raw and uncooked. Similarly, for deep viable exploration of Pali terms, one needs original, untranslated, Pali glosses.

Having said this, I hope you are not offended, and wish you success. English translations of suttas provide excellent food for thought, applicable in real life.

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by ToVincent » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:42 pm

Dmytro wrote:.......
By embracing less, it seems that one can do more. And it is not Buddha, who spoke about the danger of diffusedness, that would contradict this.

I do have a special folder named "Dmytro" with all your Pali words' posts. But I must say that I do screen them off the commentaries' passages.
They are still very useful indeed.

As far as Early Buddhist Texts (EBT) are concerned, I rely for instance, on works, who compare the suttas in the different books.
That allows to assess the likelihood that any particular element of doctrine was present in the common ancestral collection, from which the different extant texts are presumably descended.
Confining oneself to the sutra-aṅga, for instance, is also a good way to circumscribed oneself to the mere doctrinal content of the suttas.

Stuff like that; relying on several good translators, and trying to do my best with the Pali.

Then what one talks about is neither Theravadin, or Sarvāstivādin or Mūlasarvāstivādin, or whatever; but purely Buddhist. No more argument about "this was added", or "this was taken off"; or "this was misinterpreted".

Thanks for your encouragement.
Metta


P.S.
Stephen Hodge, for example, has an advantage of studying a wide variety of texts:
http://www.harperreach.com/author/stephen-hodge/

Unfortunately, despite his great knowledge, that might be a bit deluging, Hodge seems to have a hard time with clear understanding, when he just sees (as stated above in a previous post) - firstly, nimittas as "created inside the individual by saññā" ?!? - Secondly, as seing nimittas ""created inside the individual".
When he says further: "I believe that "nimitta" are mental phenomena rather than external things per se"; I think he is missing something through some kind of bias.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by cjmacie » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:42 pm

Quite by accident – organizing my growing collection of dictionaries – I tested out "ENGLISH - PĀLI DICTIONARY [by] A. P. Buddhadatta Mahathera" that I'd downloaded at some point. Testing word search, just happening to use "nimitta", came up with the list below. This reflects not necessarily what's in the Pali language, per se, but rather what English translators have "read-in" there in correspondence with English ideas, meanings.

Many interesting tidbits show-up:
1) So many references to the area of "augur", "divination", "omen", etc., etc.; it's all Pali so must come from somewhere in the Pali Canon – perhaps the Jakata or other places collecting religious, mythic stories?
2) The "cause" idea in "for", "instrumentally", "motive", "reason", "sake", "why", etc.
3) "haply", "fortuity" – is "ninnimittam" perhaps an unrelated construct?
4) "muck"?
5) "precursor", "premonitive", "presage", "prodrome", "prognosis" (medical application?) -- less magical forms of the sense in (1) above.
6) "Pyromantic" ?
6) "Spectrum" ?
7) "Straggle" ?

Overall, nimitta not just an image from the past, but a strong sense of relating to, opportunity, or even agency with respect in some phenomena yet to arise?

augur : (m.) nimittapāthaka. (v.t.) subhāsubham apekkhati.
augural : (adj.) nimittāyatta; anāgatadassaka.
augury : (nt.) nimittapathana.
auspice : (nt.) pubbanimitta; subhanimitta. (nt.; plu.) maṅgalādhipacca.
bodeful : (adj.) pubbanimittasahita.
casual : (adj) atakkita; āgantuka; ninnimitta.
diviner : (m.) nimittapāthaka.
female organ : (f.) yoni. (nt.) itthinimitta.
for : (prep.) uddissa. In pali its meaning is expressed by the dative or the words hetu; nimittam; kāranā and (conj.) yasmā; tasmā; tena.
foreboding : (nt.) pageva-sūcana; pubbanimitta.
foreshadow : (v.t.) pubbanimittaṃ dasseti. (pp.) dassitapubbanimitta.
foretoken : (nt.) pubbanimitta. (v.t.) pubbanimittaṃ dasseti; pageva sūceti. (pp.) dassitapubbanimitta; pageva sūcita.
fortuity : (nt.) ninnimitta. (f.) yadicchāsiddhi.
geomancer : (m.) pamsunimittapāthaka.
geomancy : (nt.) pamsunimittapathana.
haply : (adv.) vidhiyogena; ninnimittam.
harbinger : (nt.) āgamanasūcana; pubbanimitta. (m.) purecārī; sandesahara. (v.t.) āgamanam sūceti or pakāseti. (pp.) sūcitāgamana.
herald sign : (nt.) pubbanimitta.
ill-omen : (nt.) asubhanimitta.
instrumentally : (adv.) kāranato; nimittato.
mascot : (nt.) subhanimitta; mangalavatthu.
maunder : (v.i.) animittam āhindati; avyattam jappati. (pp.) animittam āhindita; avyattam jappita.
motive : (nt.) nimitta; nidāna; kārana. (m.) hetu. (adj.) cālaka; pavattaka; hetubhūta. (v.t.) hetum sampādeti.
muck : (m.) gomayādi. (v.t.) aparisuddham karoti; landam pāteti; animittam āhindati. (pp.) aparisuddham kata; landam pātita; animittam āhindita.
omen : (nt.) nimitta; pubbanimitta || good omen: (nt.) subhanimitta.
on that account : tato nidānam; tannimittam.
portend : (v.t.) pagevasūceti; pubbanimittam dasseti. (pp.) pagevasūcita; pubbanimittam dassita.
portent : (nt.) pubbanimitta.
portentous : (adj.) pubbanimittasahita; asubhasūcaka.
portentously : (adv.) pubbanimittavasena.
precursor : (m.) aggesara; purecāri. (nt.) pubbanimitta.
precursory : (adj.) puregāmī; pubbanimittabhūta.
premonitive : puttanimittabhūta.
premonitory : puttanimittabhūta.
presage : (nt.) pubbanimitta. (v.t.) pageva sūceti. (pp.) sūcita.
prodrome : (nt.) rogapubbanimitta. (m.) puretara-gantha.
prognosis : (nt.) roganimitta.
prognostic : (nt.) pubbanimitta.
prognosticate : (v.t.) pubbanimittam dasseti; pagevasūceti.
prognostication : (nt.) nimittapathana.
prognosticative : (adj.) anāgatasūcaka; pageva nirūpaka.
prognosticator : (m.) nimittapāthaka; anāgatasūcaka.
pyromantic : (m.) agginimittapāthaka.
reason : (nt.) kārana; nimitta. (m.) hetu; ñāya. (f.) yutti; vicāranasatti. (v.i.) 1. takketi; vicāreti; yuttim katheti; hetum dasseti. (pp.) takkita; vicārita; yuttim kathita; dassitahetuka.
sake : (nt.) nimitta; kārana. (m.) hetu.
score : (nt.) gananācinha; (f.) chinnarekhā; vīsatisankhyā; (nt.) nimitta; hetu; (v.t.) rehkāhi anketi. (pp.) rekhankita.
soothsayer : (m.) nemittika; nimittapāthaka.
spectrum : (m.) tiyamsakāce dissamānachabbanna. (nt.) uggahanimitta.
straggle : (v.i.) samūhato viyujjhati; vikinnākārena yāti; animittam āhindati. (pp.) samūhato viyutta; vikinnākārena yāta.
symptom : (nt.) pubbanimitta; rogalakkhana.
symptomatic : (adj.) sūcaka; ñāpaka; nimittabhūta.
vagina : (nt.) kosākāravatthu; itthinimitta.
vulva : (nt.) itthinimitta.
why : (adv.) kasmā? kena? nanu. (nt.) nimitta; kārana. (m.) hetu.

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