Pali Term: Nimitta

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

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Volovsky
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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Volovsky » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:04 am

Dmytro wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:32 am
So image nimitta is by no means the invention of the contemporary teachers.
I never said such a thing.
You said there is "significant difference". Im just trying to find what is this difference.
I am talking about a semantic shift, when the sense of the words gradually changes over time.
How does the sense of the words change over time?

There might be many reasons, why Pa-Auk Sayadaw doesn't talk about touch nimittas (especially since they occupy only a secondary position in Vism) 1. Touch is very easy to confuse. We always feel some sensations, and nimitta is something which everyone wants, so people would misinterpret their experience. It would be more difficult to understand, on what stage is the practitioner now. Light is more difficult to fake (although some people do see light on early stages, but they cannot focus on it), 2. For one who has genuine touch nimitta, the light might appear very soon, then one works with the light, 3. They might be rear, 4. Light as nimitta might be easier to focus on, etc, etc.
All (saññā) has the characteristic of recognition (sañjānana); its property is the making of a representation (nimitta) that is a condition of noting again, 'this is the very same thing' - as carpenters and so on do with wood, etc.; its manifestation is the producing of conviction by virtue of a perceptual image that has been accordingly learnt - like the blind perceiving the elephant (Ud 68-9); its basis is whatever object that has come near - like the saññā 'people' that arises for young animals in respect of scarecrows.
So... What is this quotation for? Does Pa-Auk Sayadaw teaches something else?
In Visuddhimagga nimittas are unique for each object-support, and represent its qualities.
And? Is it different from Sayadaw's approach?

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Dmytro
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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Dmytro » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:40 am

Well, I've explained myself in detail in this long thread, and I don't think that repeated explanations will lead to any beneficial outcome.

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Volovsky
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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by Volovsky » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:31 am

Dmytro wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:40 am
Well, I've explained myself in detail in this long thread, and I don't think that repeated explanations will lead to any beneficial outcome.
The only support for your accusation you could provide was this touch nimitta, to the others (like kasinas) I have replayed and showed they were your misunderstandings, you couldn't provide a feedback to that.

This touch nimitta is not a "significant difference", since there is nothing wrong in teaching one approach among two. Significant it is only when a teacher adds something which is not in the text. So far you couldn't show what exactly Pa-Auk Sayadaw significantly changed.

atipattoh
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Re: Pali Term: Nimitta

Post by atipattoh » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:06 am

Dmytro wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:32 am
...
In Visuddhimagga nimittas are unique for each object-support, and represent its qualities.
Then the translation should be seed-like silky-cotton if it is to qualify for a patibhaga nimitta, white cotton (wool) for a uggaha nimitta, smokey for a parikamma nimitta.

The touch only occur on preliminary, for meditator that take air brushes thru the nostril hair, produce "wavy" movement perception, nimitta will be a smokey parikamma. Such physical sense base contact has to be dropped for mind-base to take over.
It can not be silk-cotton, but silky-cotton to be qualified as patibhagga nimitta. In other word, translucent (neva-sanna-na-asanna). The word cotton remain because it start of as white cotton. It is the nature of description that taking the uggaha object to explain, as patibhaga objects characteristic do converge.

On the matter of seed, when a meditator take air brushes thru nostril hair, he has the tendency of taking the outer opening of the nostril characteristic as well. Or even when he project away from nostril, there is a tendency of perceiving round. Combining these characteristic, will end up seed-like white cotton(wool) for uggaha nimitta.

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