Vinaya 3.60

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Coyote
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:42 pm
Location: Wales - UK

Vinaya 3.60

Post by Coyote » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:14 am

I get the pariyatti daily words in my inbox every day, and usually I just read the English. However I though it might be a good idea to actually start reading the Pali. In today's passage there is one part that I do not understand. Can anyone help me understand this construction:

Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā,
tesaṃ hetuṃ Tathāgato āha
tesañca yo nirodho;
evaṃvādī Mahāsamaṇo.

I have no problem with the first relative construction starting ye and being taken up by tesaṃ. However I am not sure I understand the second. This translation given is:

Those phenomena arising from a cause,
of these the Enlightened One has told the cause
and also their cessation;
this is the "doctrine" of the Great Recluse.

I'm not sure what the function of the second relative pronoun is and why nirodho is not in the accusative as hetu is, given that it seems to be a mirror of the second line.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

schakma94
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Vinaya 3.60

Post by schakma94 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:55 am

The translation is good. The first line tells about the dhammas. Notice that dhammas are in plural.
Second line tells about their cause for origination and this cause is used in singular form.
Now the third line tells again about the cessation of those dhammas. To indicate those dhammas mentioned in the first line, here "tesanca" is used. I think it's fairly simple as that.

srkris
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri May 13, 2016 9:36 am

Re: Vinaya 3.60

Post by srkris » Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:31 pm

I asked a friend - and this is what he says (see comments)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/palistu ... 824744632/

Coyote
Posts: 845
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:42 pm
Location: Wales - UK

Re: Vinaya 3.60

Post by Coyote » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:02 pm

Thanks so much! 'That which is thier cessation' makes much more sense of the relative clause. :anjali:
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

papercrane1
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:51 am

Re: Vinaya 3.60

Post by papercrane1 » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:16 am

I've found that the English words "as for" and "which/who" can be very useful when translating Pāli relative pronouns like yo, ye, yā, yaṃ, yesaṃ, etc.

For instance:
Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā,
tesaṃ hetuṃ Tathāgato āha
tesañca yo nirodho;
evaṃvādī Mahāsamaṇo.

"As for dhammas which are produced from a cause:
The Tathāgata has spoken of their cause.
And as for their cessation:
The Great Recluse is a preacher of such."
Or at SN 23.2:
Rūpe kho, rādha, yo chando yo rāgo nandī taṇhā, tatra satto, tatra visatto, tasmā sattoti vuccati.
"O Rādha, as for desire, passion, delight, and craving in relation to form: stuck therein, tightly stuck therein, one is therefore called 'a being.'"
Or at SN 22.29:
Yo, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ abhinandati, dukkhaṃ so abhinandati. Yo dukkhaṃ abhinandati, aparimutto so dukkhasmāti vadāmi.
"O monks, as for one who delights in form: he delights in suffering. As for one who delights in suffering: 'He is not released from suffering,' I say!"

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