Shouldn't abyāpāda·saṅkappa cover avihiṃsā·saṅkappa?

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Kumara
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Re: Shouldn't abyāpāda·saṅkappa cover avihiṃsā·saṅkappa?

Post by Kumara » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:54 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:
Kumara wrote:Thanks for trying. However, as I understand your explanation for harming, it's physical. Sankappa however is mental.
Bhante, I fail to see where the problem is. The aspiration (sankappa, mental) is about preventing harm (both physical and mental) from happening for others. Like when I walk on the monastery path, I remain constantly aware to make sure I will not inadvertently crush a snail. The sankappa is my mental attitude, the putative harm would happen to the snail. Therefore I have the aspiration to not cause harm, and at that stage harm is just a concept, that I prevent from taking a footing in physical reality.
Thanks for clarifying your point. Assuming that's true, how does that apply in to one in meditation?
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Re: Shouldn't abyāpāda·saṅkappa cover avihiṃsā·saṅkappa?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:19 am

Kumara wrote:Thanks for clarifying your point. Assuming that's true, how does that apply in to one in meditation?
If I am not mistaken, the Vsm relates abyāpāda·saṅkappa to mettā·ceto·vimutti and avihiṃsā·saṅkappa to karuṇā·ceto·vimutti, which does make some sense to me. Then the corresponding meditation instructions would be:
SN 42.8
"That disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction with an awareness imbued with compassion, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with compassion — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through compassion is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there."

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Kumara
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Re: Shouldn't abyāpāda·saṅkappa cover avihiṃsā·saṅkappa?

Post by Kumara » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:36 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:
Kumara wrote:Thanks for clarifying your point. Assuming that's true, how does that apply in to one in meditation?
If I am not mistaken, the Vsm relates abyāpāda·saṅkappa to mettā·ceto·vimutti and avihiṃsā·saṅkappa to karuṇā·ceto·vimutti, which does make some sense to me. Then the corresponding meditation instructions would be:
SN 42.8
"That disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction with an awareness imbued with compassion, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with compassion — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through compassion is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there."
Thanks for that. Wonder if you see a dissonance in making the connection? I'm coloring the above for clarity.

For the benefit of the less-Pali-literate, byāpāda means ill-will, abyāpāda means non-ill-will.
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: Shouldn't abyāpāda·saṅkappa cover avihiṃsā·saṅkappa?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:04 am

I agree that abypāda is metta, while avihiṃsa is karuṇā. The Buddha would not use three words to define right thought where two words would cover the full range of meaning.

It''s not difficult to have good-will for the druggies begging for cash to buy their next fix while having little compassion for them. "They made their own bed, and therefore have to lie in it." Others may have neither metta nor karuṇā for them, and just want the authorities to clear them off the streets so that they don't have to be accosted every day on their way to the station.
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ToVincent
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Re: Shouldn't abyāpāda·saṅkappa cover avihiṃsā·saṅkappa?

Post by ToVincent » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:18 pm

A true Buddhist should have metta (goodwill,) and karuna (compassion,) for all beings. A true Buddhist should spread them to the four directions.

Moral and ethics are Mara's best friends. Wasn't Mara rewarded with heaven, for his good virtue and generosity; then got deluded there, by the pleasures of the senses. Isn't Mara still highly virtuous when it comes to others, and not for himself and his friends (maras and humans)?.
Isn't non-virtue the excuse Mara & his friends have to criticize you at the slightest fault, if you are not on their side? - Be perverted (and merrily join them in this world,) or be spotless (and earnestly face, while not fighting them). No other alternative here; once you know.

Beware of the overly virtuous. They will not pardon even that extra cookie you're eating; while they are raping that kid; who might end up as a junky later on.

The immeasurable citta (appamāṇacetaso), and the liberation of citta (cetovimutti) are good pals.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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We are all possessed - more or less.
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And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
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Buddha Vacana
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Re: Shouldn't abyāpāda·saṅkappa cover avihiṃsā·saṅkappa?

Post by Buddha Vacana » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:55 pm

Kumara wrote:
Buddha Vacana wrote:
Kumara wrote:Thanks for clarifying your point. Assuming that's true, how does that apply in to one in meditation?
If I am not mistaken, the Vsm relates abyāpāda·saṅkappa to mettā·ceto·vimutti and avihiṃsā·saṅkappa to karuṇā·ceto·vimutti, which does make some sense to me. Then the corresponding meditation instructions would be:
SN 42.8
"That disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction with an awareness imbued with compassion, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with compassion — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through compassion is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there."
Thanks for that. Wonder if you see a dissonance in making the connection? I'm coloring the above for clarity.

For the benefit of the less-Pali-literate, byāpāda means ill-will, abyāpāda means non-ill-will.
Bhante, I must apologize for once again failing to see where the problem might be. The expression "devoid of ill-will" (vigata-byāpādo) is mentioned for all 4 brahma-viharas, and therefore can be a priori taken as a preliminary condition for their practice relating to the corresponding hindrance (nīvaraṇa) that has to be abandoned before starting the practice:
“sa kho so, gāmaṇi, ariyasāvako evaṃ vigatābhijjho vigata-byāpādo asammūḷho sampajāno paṭissato mettāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṃ, tathā tatiyaṃ, tathā catutthaṃ. iti uddhamadho tiriyaṃ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ mettāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyāpajjena pharitvā viharati. seyyathāpi, gāmaṇi, balavā saṅkhadhamo appakasireneva catuddisā viññāpeyya; evameva kho, gāmaṇi, evaṃ bhāvitāya mettāya cetovimuttiyā evaṃ bahulīkatāya yaṃ pamāṇakataṃ kammaṃ, na taṃ tatrāvasissati, na taṃ tatrāvatiṭṭhati.

"That disciple of the noble ones, headman — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness imbued with good will, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through good will is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there.

“sa kho so, gāmaṇi, ariyasāvako evaṃ vigatābhijjho vigatabyāpādo asammūḷho sampajāno paṭissato karuṇāsahagatena cetasā ... pe ... muditāsahagatena cetasā ... pe .... upekkhāsahagatena cetasā ekaṃ disaṃ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṃ, tathā tatiyaṃ, tathā catutthaṃ. iti uddhamadho tiriyaṃ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṃ lokaṃ upekkhāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyāpajjena pharitvā viharati. seyyathāpi, gāmaṇi, balavā saṅkhadhamo appakasireneva catuddisā viññāpeyya; evameva kho, gāmaṇi, evaṃ bhāvitāya upekkhāya cetovimuttiyā evaṃ bahulīkatāya yaṃ pamāṇakataṃ kammaṃ na taṃ tatrāvasissati, na taṃ tatrāvatiṭṭhatī”ti.

"That disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction with an awareness imbued with compassion... appreciation... equanimity, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with equanimity — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through equanimity is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there."

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