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literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:54 pm
by anjali
Hello,

I was wondering if someone who knows pali can help me with a word-for-word translation of a short verse from the Mahaparinibbana sutta:
DN 3.36.png
DN 3.36.png (3.38 KiB) Viewed 2086 times
You can find the verse here: http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/7D/3/3.36, #222. To help get the ball rolling, here is the verse with one word per line:

Asallīnena--?
cittena--citta?--heart/mind
vedanaṃ--vedana--feeling/sensation(pleasant unpleasant/neutral)
ajjhavāsayi--?
Pajjotasseva--?
nibbānaṃ--nirvana--unbinding/release/liberation
vimokkho--?
cetaso--?
ahū--?

The motivation for this is that I've found three different translations (Thanissaro, Sister Vajira & Francis Story, and Rhys Davids) that were different enough that I want to go back to the original Pali and do a more in-depth analysis. I'm guessing at some of the words. No clue on the others. Any help would be appreciated in translating these words!

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:44 pm
by Kare
Instead of trying to give you a solution to your problem, I would like to congratulate you for seeing the problem!

This is just the kind of problem that made me start studying Pali many years ago. And once I got started, I found the studying and reading of Pali so fascinating and absorbing that I just couldn't stop - and I am still studying, reading and translating Pali texts.

So do not look to others for a solution. Start learning Pali, and you will find the solution for yourself.

Best wishes! :anjali:

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:17 am
by Hanzze
Wohh, that is compassion!
I found the studying and reading of Pali so fascinating and absorbing that I just couldn't stop - and I am still studying, reading and translating Pali texts.
That maybe a danger.

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:36 pm
by anjali
Kare wrote:So do not look to others for a solution. Start learning Pali, and you will find the solution for yourself.

Best wishes! :anjali:
Good advice, but I just don't have the time or inclination to do so. In the quote I requested help on, because I've been reading Thanissaro Bhikku's Mind Like Fire Unbound (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html), I'm especially interested in the sentence, "Pajjotasseva-nibbānaṃ vimokkho cetaso ahū."

I did a lot of digging the last couple of days. Here is my analysis of this sentence:

Pajjota--flame
eva--like
nibannam--unbinding (I prefer this meaning of nibbana, instead of cessation)
vimokkho--release
cetaso--citta
ahu--3rd person singular present tense of "to be" (aorist--whatever that means). The nearest equivalent in English in this context, I'm guessing, is "is his"

Here is my translation: "Like a flame's unbinding is his citta's release." Citta is an extremely problematic word which has been glossed mostly as "mind" in English. So, the full English translation would be: "Like a flame's unbinding is his mind's release."

Here are some other translations for comparison:
Thanissaro:
Like a flame's unbinding
was the liberation
of awareness.
Sister Vajira & Francis Story:
His mind, like a flame extinguished, finds release.
Rhys Davids:
E'en as a bright flame dies away, so was
His last deliverance from the bonds of life!

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:11 am
by Hanzze
Great effort! Now, does it feel differnt?

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:38 pm
by UhBaUnTaUh
You should try to put all of Vibhatti--si yo am. yo naa hi sa nam. smaa hi sa nam. sming su, to your mouth and your mind.

Another, you should watch on Atthakatha when you can't going on-- the way that all of Tipitaka translator such as Buddhadasa, P.A. Payutto, Access Insign, always do .-
Asallīnenāti alīnena asaṃkuṭitena suvikasiteneva cittena. Vedanaṃ ajjhavāsayīti sato sampajāno hutvā māraṇantikaṃ vedanaṃ adhivāsesi, na vedanānuvattī hutvā ito cito ca samparivatti. Pajjotasseva nibbānaṃ, vimokkho cetaso ahūti yathā telañca paṭicca, vaṭṭiñca paṭicca pajjalanto pajjoto padīpo tesaṃ parikkhaye nibbāyati. Nibbuto ca katthaci gantvā na tiṭṭhati, aññadatthu antaradhāyati, adassanameva gacchati; evaṃ kilesābhisaṅkhāre nissāya pavattamāno khandhasantāno tesaṃ parikkhaye nibbāyati, nibbuto ca katthaci gantvā na tiṭṭhati, aññadatthu antaradhāyati, adassanameva gacchatīti dasseti. Tena vuttaṃ ‘‘nibbanti dhīrā yathāyaṃ padīpo’’ti (khu. pā. 6.15), ‘‘accī yathā vātavegena khittā’’ti (su. ni. 1080) ca ādi.
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0508a2.att12.xml#M2.0345" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guide :

906.[dī. ni. 2.222] ‘‘Asallīnena cittena, vedanaṃ ajjhavāsayi;
Pajjotasseva nibbānaṃ, vimokkho cetaso ahu.

Bikkhu does ajjhavāsa with Asallīnacitta.(It ) iva nibbānaṃ of Pajjota, (because) vimokkha-ceta person ahu.

Translated :

Activist, who can endure every pain (at the end of life), can enlighten four noble truths such as candle light death.

--------------------------------------------------

edit : I have seen atop translated script, and I embarrassing to my unpretty translation.
edit2 : Bhikkhu, who can endure -> Activist, who can endure.

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:57 pm
by anjali
UhBaUnTaUh wrote:906.[dī. ni. 2.222] ‘‘Asallīnena cittena, vedanaṃ ajjhavāsayi;
Pajjotasseva nibbānaṃ, vimokkho cetaso ahu.

Bikkhu does ajjhavāsa with Asallīnacitta.(It ) iva nibbānaṃ of Pajjota, (because) vimokkha-ceta person ahu.

Translated :

Bhikkhu, who can endure every pain (at the end of life), can enlighten four noble truths such as candle light death.
Thank you for posting your translation. Not many people responded to my request. That you did so is much appreciated.

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:43 pm
by anjali
Hanzze wrote:Great effort! Now, does it feel differnt?
Yes, it does feel different, if I get your meaning. By knowing the underlying alternatives for translation, and meditating on the which one felt intuitively more accurate--at least for me, I have a deeper connection with the dhamma contained in that verse.

Some points of note about the translation:
1. Anuruddha spoke the verse at the moment of the Buddha's passing. This lends more support to the notion of the present tense of the form of "to be". A couple of the verses were in past tense.
2. When using the notion of nibanna as unbinding, vimokko is better translated as release--at least to me. Unbinding/release seems more complimentary than unbinding/liberation or unbinding/deliverance.

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:48 am
by UhBaUnTaUh
I'm sorry that I forgot to translate "Asallīnena cittena".

However, I have edited that post.

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:38 am
by Hanzze
anjali wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Great effort! Now, does it feel differnt?
Yes, it does feel different.
In a sence of "my" or " in according to my present perception of words" it is now easier to take? Or is it more a kind of release by being able to understand other translations as well as the meaning is absorbet and perceptions weakened.
Does it leave stuff for controversy?

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:49 pm
by anjali
Hanzze wrote:In a sence of "my" or " in according to my present perception of words" it is now easier to take? Or is it more a kind of release by being able to understand other translations as well as the meaning is absorbet and perceptions weakened.
Does it leave stuff for controversy?
? I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are asking. I've translated the verse to my satisfaction and I have more appreciation for how hard it is to translate one language into another and capture all the nuances of the original text.

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:07 pm
by Hanzze
So there is now satisfaction and no more controversy? As you did it for satisfaction.

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:41 pm
by anjali
Hanzze wrote:So there is now satisfaction and no more controversy? As you did it for satisfaction.
Yes. :-)

Re: literal translation of short verse from mahaparinibbna sutta

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:50 am
by Hanzze
Great :smile: and today?