how to read a dictionary entry (a dictionary of pali)

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cfekete
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 4:10 am

how to read a dictionary entry (a dictionary of pali)

Post by cfekete »

I've just got a copy of the Cone "A dictionary of pali". It does not have any description and guide to the entries. And I do not really understand the somehow "cryptic" statements under the entries.

Please, if you are familiar with reading dictionaries, could you help what e.g. this entry below (a really sort one - atu) contains.

1. "m." This is OK. I found it in the abbreviations = masculine
2. "[?]" I do not have a clue what this mean. It is not in any of the abbreviations in the book.
3. "father;" OK. This will be the meaning
4. "?" a question mark again... What does it mean here?
5. "M I 449, 1" To my understanding here M stands for Majjhimanikaya (PTS edition), volume 1, page 449 line 1. And I checked the given book and the samle sentence segment is there "Bhikkhusa atu mari, bhikkhusa matu mari, ..."
6. "Ps III 165, 6" Similar as above. Papancasudani, volume III page 165, line 6. But it is not totally clear how and why this way was the quotation is made.

The quotation in the dictionary was like: "~u ti pita ..."

I have checked the atthakatta and relevant part looks like:
"Ātumārī mātumārīti ettha ātūti pitā, mātūti mātā.
Idaṃ vuttaṃ hoti – yassa pitā vā mātā vā atthi, taṃ mātāpitaro amhākaṃ puttakoti yathā tathā vā
uppādetvā yaṃkiñci khādanīyabhojanīyaṃ datvā ekasmiṃ ṭhāne sayāpenti. So evaṃ rattiṃ piṇḍāya na
carati. Tuyhaṃ pana mātāpitaro matā maññe, tena evaṃ carasīti."

Maybe it is some grammar thing what I do not know yet. But what is the reason it is written in the dictionary as "atu ti" but the atthakatta contains "atuti"?
atu.jpg
cfekete
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 4:10 am

Re: how to read a dictionary entry (a dictionary of pali)

Post by cfekete »

And one more question, as I checked multiple entries, the grouping of the sample sentences look chaotic to me, so I really have to miss some knowledge here.

In some cases the sample sentences follow a clear pattern: source (book id, volume, page, line) "(" - here comes the sample - ")".

But in some cases looks unorganized, like the atuma entry:
"Sn 782 (yo ~anam sayam eva pava;" : looks ok so far
"; Nidd I 69,12: ~a vuccati atta);": I understand, but a sample from another book without closing the previous sample by a ")"? Why is it in a block which is introduced with Sn 782? Do they have some in common?
"888 (~anam": Now I guess this sample is from Nidd I ? Or is it? But maybe not because there is no 888 lines on a page, or is it a page number? Is it from Sn (although Nidd was mentioned before)?
A. Bhikkhu
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Re: how to read a dictionary entry (a dictionary of pali)

Post by A. Bhikkhu »

cfekete wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:00 pm
Please, if you are familiar with reading dictionaries, could you help what e.g. this entry below (a really sort one - atu) contains.

1. "m." This is OK. I found it in the abbreviations = masculine
2. "[?]" I do not have a clue what this mean. It is not in any of the abbreviations in the book.
3. "father;" OK. This will be the meaning
4. "?" a question mark again... What does it mean here?
5. "M I 449, 1" To my understanding here M stands for Majjhimanikaya (PTS edition), volume 1, page 449 line 1. And I checked the given book and the samle sentence segment is there "Bhikkhusa atu mari, bhikkhusa matu mari, ..."
6. "Ps III 165, 6" Similar as above. Papancasudani, volume III page 165, line 6. But it is not totally clear how and why this way was the quotation is made.
The [?] indicates the fact that the gender as "m" is apparently not certain, same with the second question mark.
cfekete wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:00 pm The quotation in the dictionary was like: "~u ti pita ..."

I have checked the atthakatta and relevant part looks like:
"Ātumārī mātumārīti ettha ātūti pitā, mātūti mātā.
Idaṃ vuttaṃ hoti – yassa pitā vā mātā vā atthi, taṃ mātāpitaro amhākaṃ puttakoti yathā tathā vā
uppādetvā yaṃkiñci khādanīyabhojanīyaṃ datvā ekasmiṃ ṭhāne sayāpenti. So evaṃ rattiṃ piṇḍāya na
carati. Tuyhaṃ pana mātāpitaro matā maññe, tena evaṃ carasīti."

Maybe it is some grammar thing what I do not know yet. But what is the reason it is written in the dictionary as "atu ti" but the atthakatta contains "atuti"?
For the sake of easy recognition the sandhi has been parsed.
cfekete wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:00 pm I understand, but a sample from another book without closing the previous sample by a ")"? Why is it in a block which is introduced with Sn 782? Do they have some in common?
Appears to me to be an alternative reference to a passage which clearly shows that this word means "the self".
cfekete wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:00 pm "888 (~anam": Now I guess this sample is from Nidd I ? Or is it? But maybe not because there is no 888 lines on a page, or is it a page number? Is it from Sn (although Nidd was mentioned before)?
Yes, it is clearly continuing Sn because Nidd was only the alternative passage.

Blessings!
"One should not consider the faults of others, nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds. One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds." -- The Buddha (Dhp.50)

Website: www.embracing-buddhism.jimdo.com
A. Bhikkhu
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Re: how to read a dictionary entry (a dictionary of pali)

Post by A. Bhikkhu »

cfekete wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:33 pm "; Nidd I 69,12: ~a vuccati atta);": I understand, but a sample from another book without closing the previous sample by a ")"? Why is it in a block which is introduced with Sn 782? Do they have some in common?
I think I understand now, that seems to be the respective commentary (i.e. the Niddesa). I checked several other entries and this seems to fit the pattern, e.g.: "M III ... (quote; Ps quote)"; "Ps" being the abbreviation for Papañcasūdanī, the M commentary.
"One should not consider the faults of others, nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds. One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds." -- The Buddha (Dhp.50)

Website: www.embracing-buddhism.jimdo.com
cfekete
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Re: how to read a dictionary entry (a dictionary of pali)

Post by cfekete »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:46 pm I think I understand now, that seems to be the respective commentary (i.e. the Niddesa). I checked several other entries and this seems to fit the pattern, e.g.: "M III ... (quote; Ps quote)"; "Ps" being the abbreviation for Papañcasūdanī, the M commentary.
Dear A. Bhikkhu.
:) Yes, that will be the logic here and you are right it looks like a kind of consistency. Thanks a lot.

I have still doubts about the [?]. Is it possible that it does not relate to the "m." (masculine) but it relates to the origin of the word. So it may mean that the "origin" of the word is unknown...
As I looked up several words, it seems that a lot of entry has this "[]" part near the begging of the entry. And it has a content like, usually,
- S -sanskrit word-
- pp of ... -> past participle of ...
- from -another pali word

Isn't possible that [?] means unknown "origin" of the word? If the meaning is this than it is not clear why is it added at all. There are numerous entries which does not have the "[]" section, e.g atisara. So, in this case, why to some entries "[?]" is added and in other cases there is no such section at all.

Still "?" without the "[]" looks like an open question to me. E.g. the atu MI 449 sample is headed with the "?". What does it mean in this case? Does this mean that the sample may be wrong?

And to make things further complicated, there are "(?)" as well in some entries, like in the entry upatthambhanika.
"upatthambhanika, f. (?) [..." Maybe this is the meaning you previously mentioned. That we are not sure whether the word is feminine or not. But we guess it is feminine...?
A. Bhikkhu
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Re: how to read a dictionary entry (a dictionary of pali)

Post by A. Bhikkhu »

cfekete wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:08 pm Isn't possible that [?] means unknown "origin" of the word?
I would say that the gender is what it is about because it directly follows the gender specification and other entries like tāpa have it in similar position -- "m (and n. ?)" -- showing that the question mark relates to the gender ... It is also not uncommon in Pāḷi that a certain ambiguity exists as to the actual gender, substantive nouns at times occurring in all three genders:
However, a substantive noun, without changing form, can also possess two or all three genders (e.g. kumāra [“boy”, “prince”] can assume masculine [kumāro] as well as feminine forms [kumārī] and kuddaka [“belly”] can occur in the masculine [kuddako], neuter [kuddakaṃ] and feminine [kuddakā]; Geiger, 1943/1994, pp. 67–68
Mettā 2u!
"One should not consider the faults of others, nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds. One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds." -- The Buddha (Dhp.50)

Website: www.embracing-buddhism.jimdo.com
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