difference between hoti and atthi

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auto
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difference between hoti and atthi

Post by auto »

from other thread
Aloka wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:54 am
There are some interesting comments about Ud 8.1, Ud 8.3 and Ud 8.4 in chapter 9 "The Unconditioned and Non-Locality" in Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro's book ' The Island .' (Ud 8.3 was quoted earlier in this topic).

https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/the-island/

Also, I don't think there are two t's in amata. (in the title of this topic)

.
He comments on the difference of hoti and atthi.
The Island.. by Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro wrote:It is significant that, when the Buddha makes such statements as these, he
uses a different Pali verb ‘to be’ than the usual one. The vast majority of uses of
the verb employ the Pali ‘hoti’; this is the ordinary type of being, implying
existence in time and space: I am happy; she is a fine horse; the house is small;
the days are long. In these passages just quoted, when the Buddha makes his rare
but emphatic metaphysical statements, he uses the verb ‘atthi’ instead. It still
means ‘to be’ but some Buddhist scholars (notably Peter Harvey) insist that there
is a different order of being implied: that it points to a reality which transcends the
customary bounds of time, space, duality and individuality.
and for context purpose, is atthi = I am that I am? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

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Sam Vara
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Re: difference between hoti and atthi

Post by Sam Vara »

auto wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:51 am
from other thread
Aloka wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:54 am
There are some interesting comments about Ud 8.1, Ud 8.3 and Ud 8.4 in chapter 9 "The Unconditioned and Non-Locality" in Ajahn Pasanno and Ajahn Amaro's book ' The Island .' (Ud 8.3 was quoted earlier in this topic).

https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/the-island/

Also, I don't think there are two t's in amata. (in the title of this topic)

.
He comments on the difference of hoti and atthi.
The Island.. by Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro wrote:It is significant that, when the Buddha makes such statements as these, he
uses a different Pali verb ‘to be’ than the usual one. The vast majority of uses of
the verb employ the Pali ‘hoti’; this is the ordinary type of being, implying
existence in time and space: I am happy; she is a fine horse; the house is small;
the days are long. In these passages just quoted, when the Buddha makes his rare
but emphatic metaphysical statements, he uses the verb ‘atthi’ instead. It still
means ‘to be’ but some Buddhist scholars (notably Peter Harvey) insist that there
is a different order of being implied: that it points to a reality which transcends the
customary bounds of time, space, duality and individuality.
and for context purpose, is atthi = I am that I am? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am
The Buddha might, as Peter Harvey suggests, use the term atthi when he is talking about some transcendent order. But it doesn't signify that this transcendence is the object of the discourse, because he uses it very frequently when simply talking about things which are firmly within time, space, duality, and individuality. For example:
atthi mano, atthi dhammā, atthi manoviññāṇaṃ, atthi manoviññāṇaviññātabbā dhammā, atthi tattha loko vā lokapaññatti
vā.
in SN 35.68:
Where there is the mind, thoughts, mind consciousness, and phenomena to be known by mind consciousness, there is the world or what is known as the world.
Literally mundane.

auto
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Re: difference between hoti and atthi

Post by auto »

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:13 pm
The Buddha might, as Peter Harvey suggests, use the term atthi when he is talking about some transcendent order. But it doesn't signify that this transcendence is the object of the discourse, because he uses it very frequently when simply talking about things which are firmly within time, space, duality, and individuality. For example:
atthi mano, atthi dhammā, atthi manoviññāṇaṃ, atthi manoviññāṇaviññātabbā dhammā, atthi tattha loko vā lokapaññatti
vā.
in SN 35.68:
Where there is the mind, thoughts, mind consciousness, and phenomena to be known by mind consciousness, there is the world or what is known as the world.
Literally mundane.
if to go with atthi is metaphysical, different order of being(is) then i apply this to what could this quote mean in that sense. If it would be 'hoti' then i would go with ordinary cakkhu, rupa etc... Also by this i can contemplate if the loka here means this ordinary world.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.68/en/sujato wrote:“Samiddhi, where there is the eye, sights, eye consciousness, and phenomena to be known by eye consciousness, there is the world or what is known as the world.“Yattha kho, samiddhi, atthi cakkhu, atthi rūpā, atthi cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, atthi cakkhuviññāṇaviññātabbā dhammā, atthi tattha loko vā lokapaññatti vāti … pe …Where there is the ear … nose … tongue … body …atthi jivhā … pe …Where there is the mind, thoughts, mind consciousness, and phenomena to be known by mind consciousness, there is the world or what is known as the world.atthi mano, atthi dhammā, atthi manoviññāṇaṃ, atthi manoviññāṇaviññātabbā dhammā, atthi tattha loko vā lokapaññatti vā.
It doesn't take much time to consider the metaphysical aspect every time when 'atthi' is used. And it kind of let air to my brain if i read about it, since i have thinking about the meaning of 'hoti' before,
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.2.3/pli/ms wrote: All form is that which is
not a cause,
not the concomitant of a cause,
disconnected with cause,
conditioned,
compound,
endowed with form,
mundane,
..
Sabbaṃ rūpaṃ
na hetumeva,
ahetukameva,
hetuvippayuttameva,
sappaccayameva,
saṅkhatameva,
rūpameva,
lokiyameva,
..
and i got to say i mistook it with hetu.

and also this mentions loka as mundane. So, yes i agree with you for now.

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Assaji
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Re: difference between hoti and atthi

Post by Assaji »

Hi Sam Vara,
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:13 pm
The Buddha might, as Peter Harvey suggests, use the term atthi when he is talking about some transcendent order. But it doesn't signify that this transcendence is the object of the discourse, because he uses it very frequently when simply talking about things which are firmly within time, space, duality, and individuality. For example:
atthi mano, atthi dhammā, atthi manoviññāṇaṃ, atthi manoviññāṇaviññātabbā dhammā, atthi tattha loko vā lokapaññatti
vā.
in SN 35.68:
Where there is the mind, thoughts, mind consciousness, and phenomena to be known by mind consciousness, there is the world or what is known as the world.
Literally mundane.
Yes, 'atthi' is just about existence in the ontological sense.

Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi and Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu shed more light on the difference between 'hoti/bhavati' and 'atthi/sant':

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=27543

Greek philosophers somewhat similarly differentiated becoming and ontological existence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus#Panta_rhei
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becoming_(philosophy)
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20126737

Martin Heidegger expressed similar ideas in his "Being and Time":

http://pdf-objects.com/files/Heidegger- ... df#page=68

auto
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Re: difference between hoti and atthi

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/sn31.1/en/sujato wrote: There are gods who live in fragrant flowers,
Santi, bhikkhave, pupphagandhe adhivatthā devā.
.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.49/en/sujato wrote:Rather, a learned noble disciple has only knowledge about this that is independent of others:Atha kho, bhikkhave, sutavato ariyasāvakassa aparappaccayā ñāṇamevettha hoti:
‘When this exists, that is; due to the arising of this, that arises.‘imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti, imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati.
.
https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote:“When asked ‘Do gods exist’, whether you reply ‘Gods exist’ or ‘I’ve understood it in terms of causes’“
‘Atthi devā’ti, bhāradvāja, puṭṭho samāno ‘atthi devā’ti yo vadeyya, ‘ṭhānaso me viditā’ti yo vadeyya;
a sensible person would come to the definite conclusion thatatha khvettha viññunā purisena ekaṃsena niṭṭhaṃ gantabbaṃ yadidaṃ:
gods exist.”‘atthi devā’”ti.
So if you understood the existence of gods via analysis(reason) then also you can from this assume that the gods exists/atthi.

ToVincent
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Re: difference between hoti and atthi

Post by ToVincent »

Assaji wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:32 pm
.....
Here again that good old superiority complex of the Western world.
The absolute need to pair Western philosophy with the Eastern one - while gently implying that the latter was not soooo radically distinctive, and without equal. And that, maybe...

Under the cover of the "Universalist" deficient necessity, there is always this rejected, yet so present impulse to compare, and maybe.. .

Viññana nidana shows its ways into the modern world also, doesn't it?.
The "theory of chaos" was thought at the same time some years ago, in different places, by different people, who had no relationship at all.
So what?
Were the applications the same?

-----

"There is" — as ontological existence.
This is another example of the superiority complex of one language over the other.
And in this case, of a less consumate one, over a more demanding one.

"There is"?
Why not "il y a" ?
There is not the verb "to be" in "il y a" — just the verb "to have" - and sometimes, the underlying meaning of "ago".
There is bread on the table - il y a du pain sur la table ( lit. the table has bread on it).
I met him ten years ago - Je l'ai rencontré il y a dix ans (lit. it has been ten years that I met him).

Why Pali or Sanskrit shouldn't have such nuances.
Maybe, they even have more meanings - which wouldn't surprise me.
Why "it exists"? - Period!

For instance:
Before a thing comes to be and exists, there is (il y a [ago/gone by]) an unborn.
Why "this unborn exists"? — why "there exists this unborn"? — why "this unborn exists"?
Why "atthi" as " just about existence in the ontological sense"?
Tell me.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).

sentinel
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Re: difference between hoti and atthi

Post by sentinel »

Existence as (experience of) something being external

Versus

Existence as being internal (experience)
Confused layman

“ … dont cling to my words.”

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